Virtual guitar amps/analog guitar amps

[Pinky]

Yourself included, right?

I guess, yes. Only 38, which doesn't qualify me by age but I may be older than my years. "Old" is a state of mind, right?

 

[Greg_L]

I guess, yes. Only 38, which doesn't qualify me by age but I may be older than my years. "Old" is a state of mind, right?

I think so. I'm 40 going on 16. If I ever start acting my age please kill me.

 

[Greg_L]

By the way, I picked up a new AMP the other day. Marshall Plexi. Top right in the pic.

 

[ecc83]

By the way, I picked up a new AMP the other day. Marshall Plexi. Top right in the pic.

Nice! Are you going to patch them all together one day and then just put your head down?!!!

Dave.

 

[Greg_L]

I'd like to! I don't know how to run one guitar into three heads though. I aint fancy like that. Maybe I should just switch to sims.

 

[Pinky]

I think so. I'm 40 going on 16.

No disagreement here.

 

[ecc83]

I'd like to! I don't know how to run one guitar into three heads though. I aint fancy like that. Maybe I should just switch to sims.

Just get 4 jack sockets, wire them pin for pin, plug geetah into one and leads out to 3 amps!

Dave.

 

[Greg_L]

Just get 4 jack sockets, wire them pin for pin, plug geetah into one and leads out to 3 amps!

Dave.

Don't you need some kind of buffer or something? I'm no tech, I'm just the talent.

Does splitting one guitar signal into three lower the signal or something? Is it like a water pipe? Splitting one pipe into three will reduce flow and volume. Does it work like that with a guitar signal?

 

[ecc83]

Don't you need some kind of buffer or something? I'm no tech, I'm just the talent.

Does splitting one guitar signal into three lower the signal or something? Is it like a water pipe? Splitting one pipe into three will reduce flow and volume. Does it work like that with a guitar signal?

Nah! The purist might say the tone will change because 3 amps will put a load of 333k Ohms on the guitar rather than the "magic" one meg but in truth nobody notices. If you ever plug a guitar into the low sensitivity input found on some amps the input is a very low 68k or so. Many AIs have an input Z of only 200k and if you have ever used a passive DI box that was likely no higher than 200k absolute tops.

ANYWAY Greg! The PURPOSE of the exercise is havoc and destruction! No point wittering on about niceties of tone!

Dave.

 

[Greg_L]

You're right. Havoc and destruction is the goal, and so it shall be!

 

[grimtraveller]

Let there be HAVOC !

 

[Greg_L]

 

[miroslav]

I've gone digital for my home recording needs...........

............... the sims are getting good enough that for most purposes, I can't tell. I pity those who can, they're missing out (whether it's a real or perceived difference, who knows....

This explains everything.
You're just trying to convince yourself that it's "good enough".

I actually pity the guys who are missing out on real tube amp goodness (for whatever reason), and that they're forced to only use sims for everything.
You don't need to do any double-blind tests....just look down the length of your guitar chord and see what it's plugged into. There's just no way a sim/pod = the same playing enjoyment as a real tube amp.....but yeah, you can still find some use for sims, and in the right mix, no one will tell the difference.....well, you will, you always will, because you know it was a sim.
I mean, who are you trying to fool and convince.....the audience, the listeners....or yourself?



<EDIT>
And just for the record, I have a few soft-amp applications in my DAW...they're OK, you can coax some decent tones out of them and use them in some cases.....I just don't think they trump real amp tones hardly ever, and at best, they're "usable".
I'm sure if that's all I had, I too would start to believe that they were as good or better than real amps.

 

[Lt. Bob]

This explains everything.
You're just trying to convince yourself that it's "good enough".

I actually pity the guys who are missing out on real tube amp goodness (for whatever reason), and that they're forced to only use sims for everything.
.

see ..... that's why guys like pinky get defensive ..... your insistence that the way that you prefer is 'better' ...... it's better for you but not for everyone.
Dweezil Zappa isn't a dummy and can have anything he wants and chooses to use a Fractal ..... he's not the only one.

The ONLY correct answer here is 'what works for you is good'.
You can have all the tubey goodness you want but if your playing is choppy with an awkward feel to the phrasing it's not any good while someone else who can play fluidly will sound a zillion times better on a sim than the guy who's awkward sounding will on the very best of tube amps.

I make no secret of my preference for good amps which is why I have so many but ultimately it's a matter of what you do with it.

When sims proponents say sims are 'better' they're just wrong.
All they can truthfully say is that sims are better for them.
You're just as wrong to say that amps are better for anyone other than yourself. There's just too many big name artists that use sims to declare them crappy as amp lovers tend to do.


As for me ...... I don't give the least little crap about these meaningless arguments ...... I wanna hear what you can do with it.

 

[miroslav]

Dweezil also has more amps then you and I put together, and he's into more of that processed/FX'd guitar stuff, so the Fractal fits his needs. The Fractal box is primarily and FX box. I think it only has a couple of amp sims, the rest are all FX options.

I have a few amp sims in my DAW. I even bought another soft-amp plug just a couple of weeks ago...the bx_rockrack Pro from Brainworx....so it's not like I don't touch that stuff or consider it for a given purpose.
I just find it amusing that most guys who primarily use sims, and/or may have at best used a couple of "ordinary" real amps at some point in the past....try to convince themselves and others, that real tube amps are on the way out and are being completely replaced by sims.
That just sounds like a lot of wishful thinking and self fulfilling prophecy stuff.

I also don't get why the sims guys are so determined to convince the amp lovers that their sims can replace the amps.
I mean, yeah, like you said....if the sims work for them, that's fine for them, but why do they keep looking for a way to make themselves feel better about their sim choices?

Also....the fact the you keep stating that you prefer amps...is another way of saying you think they are better.
Adding the "for me" or "for you" doesn't really make much difference once you make a clear statement....that's just a bit of forum diplomacy, which is fine, but it doesn't soften/change anything.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Also....the fact the you keep stating that you prefer amps...is another way of saying you think they are better.

well ....... I don't know Miro.
Let me be clear here ...... I'm not trying to be in an argument here ...... I'm trying to wade thru everything and come to a reasonable conclusion and you have some valid points.

If someone's experience with tube amps is a Line 6 with tubes or a cheapo Jet City or whatever then I think you're absolutely right. They still don't know what the fuss is over really good tube amps like a Matchless or Dr. Z or whatever because they still haven't played thru a really good tube amp.
The mere fact that it's a tube amp doesn't mean it's what you and I are talking about as you know. There are certainly plenty of sterile sounding useless cheap tube amps.


Also if the person is a beginner or a part timer that's a mediocre player then they really don't know either. They think they do but they simply don't.
However ... in those cases I think it could also be argued that their chops aren't good enough to exploit the benefits of a good tube amp anyway so what's the difference?

To me the big thing about a good tube amp is it's responsiveness to even subtle things in your playing and pick attack. So if you're not a good enough player to have any subtleness in your chops I'm not totally convinced that you're gonna get anything for your dollars even if you get a nice tube amp.

And yes ..... I prefer tube amps and yes, I'm a top level player and yes ...... all of the very good players I work with prefer tube amps for all the reasons we've all mentioned.

Having said that I still think that it comes down to what you do with it.
For me the point of a tube amp is more how it responds to my playing which in turn affects how I play.
If you don't notice how an amp responds you're not gonna appreciate how one amp responds versus another.

As for the tone ....... I've heard recordings where someone used a sim and I couldn't tell ...... hell, I did a clean clip with a Behri Vamp and the gerg couldn't tell although with my cheaper modelers I'm unable to get distorted sounds that make me happy.
But I haven't had my hands on a Fractal. Although even some of the Fractal proponents say they don't do feedback well.

Also ..... the amount of awful tone I hear on stages is astounding regardless of amp. A VERY good player/friend of mine ( owns a mastering studio .... hangs around with Bob Katz so he's no slouch) and I were talking about that just the other day. In our modern world of preset everything there's a lot of players that spend enormous time honing their chops and very little learning how to use their gear.
When I geta new amp I'll spend sometimes months getting it tweaked to its' very best whereas a lot of players think they can just turn it on and it'll sound great ............... wrong!

As for the forum diplomacy ...... I'm:
1. trying to avoid internet negativity which I think is a great scourge in this country and a partial source of some of our problems.
I will not participate in it anymore.

2. trying to be open-minded which for a geezer player such as myself means being willing to at least entertain other ideas.
And if I disagree with them, find a way to make my case without alienating the other person to the point they don't listen to what I'm saying.

You and I don't really disagree about this amp thing .... but there really are a lot of players that I'm not sure would benefit from a nice tube amp.

I'm kinda jonesing for one of the recent Traynors BTW. It would give me an amp flavor I'm missing.
Also a Hughes and Kettner and a Swart!

Santa didn't do his job this year!!













.

 

[miroslav]

You and I don't really disagree about this amp thing .... but there really are a lot of players that I'm not sure would benefit from a nice tube amp.

I'm kinda jonesing for one of the recent Traynors BTW. It would give me an amp flavor I'm missing.
Also a Hughes and Kettner and a Swart!

Santa didn't do his job this year!!

I know we don't disagree. That's kinda my point.

You're also right that a lot of players wouldn't benefit from a really nice tube amp...but I also think many have not had the pleasure of experiencing a really nice tube amp, so their jump to sims isn't all that revolutionary...it's a matter of 1.) convenience and 2.) no $$$$ to drop on really nice tube amps.
Sure, you got the pros who can have any amp they want, still going the sim route...but I think even for them, it's a matter of convenience in many cases if not the money thing....and it's 100% understandable.
However, what I'm saying is that THAT doesn't change or diminish the quality of a really nice tube amp over some sim that's trying to emulate it.
I think if you take away the convenience and money issues...and you put a really nice tube amp next a sim/pod that emulates that amp, and then ask anyone which one would they honestly prefer to have/use, most would go for the amp.
Convenience choices come in many flavors, so people may be choosing something and believing something purely for convenience, they just don't realize it, and once they make their choices, they feel obligated to defend them.

****************

I had a vintage Traynor 100W w/412 that I bough back in 1974....but I sold it off to a guy in Florida about 4 years ago.
I kinda miss it, but the sale of that amp/cab funded another amp purchase, so it all evened out.
I also had one of the RI Traynors...it was the 40W 112 combo with the matching extension cab (can't recall the exact model number), but that was also like 4-5 years ago. I liked it, but it wasn't what I was after at the time, and I know that they've come out with some better models since...but now I have other amps on my list.

The Swart....I have the SST30 with 212, bought it from Mathew Sweet (Google him)....it's the second "name" I've bought an amp from. I also bought a Bogner Shiva from Blues Saraceno...though in both cases, I only found out who the amps came from after buying them. Both guys kept a low profile when selling (understandably). I sold the Shiva not too long after I got it...just didn't give me what I was looking for.
Anyway, the Swart is still here and staying. It's a lovely amp, with very sweet tone options and not a one-trick pony (which the Shiva was, IMO, and why I sold it).
I've not tried any of the other Swart models, but they all get raves, so whatever you're looking at, you'll like it, I'm sure.

Yeah...I'm jazzin' for another amp too....why?....well, like Greg says, it's just because I want another one .
I'm looking a the JTM45 stuff, and I'm not sure if I will get an actual Marshall or some other brand that does the JTM45/50 flavor, but that's what I'm considering. There are many to pick from....but the stuff from Mojave is high on my list, they have a few models that do that kind of crunch thing, and then there's actually an Avatar amp (the Avatar Speakers guys now make two amps) that I like. It's the Avatar 45, which is a KT66 based JTM45 copy, though it offers some really sweet modern options too. For like $1100 shipped, it's a sweet looking amp, and I already have an Avatar Bluesbreaker style 112 cab waiting for it.
I'm hoping to pull the trigger on some amp in the next month or so....just waiting for the holiday period to pass, and to see if there's some good deals out there post-XMas.

That said, and to show I'm not some analog/tube/tape snob....along with the Brainworx soft-amp plug I mentioned, I dropped about $1k on nothing but DAW plugs over the last month. There was some incredible sales from Thanksgiving right up to Dec 31, and I've picked up over $4k in software for $1k.
I didn't expect to buy all that software, but it was too good to pass up, and I got some great mixing/mastering apps that will combine nicely with my analog/hardware stuff....so I use both and don't just hate on sims/digital out of hand.

 

[Greg_L]

Yo miro, Metro amp and Ceriatone both make really nice JTM clones. Even the snobbiest Marshall snobs seem to like them.

 

[miroslav]

Yup.....already been checking them out too.

 

[Pinky]

I think if you take away the convenience and money issues...and you put a really nice tube amp next a sim/pod that emulates that amp, and then ask anyone which one would they honestly prefer to have/use, most would go for the amp.

I eluded to the audiophile blind tests that have been performed... from $1,000/ft speaker wire, to $50 patch cables, to vaporous home theater amps, to high res mixes... all of them fail the blind tests. We don't really have any scientifically performed blind tests for tube vs digital (pedals/amps). It's all anecdotal [if someone has a link to some test results, please post them!]. In the high end playback community they suck this shit up, so simply pointing out use of these products by the deepest pockets / most vested persons in the community as proof of the difference doesn't actually translate to realized benefits. Follow me here? Increase cost and/or use by people doesn't actually guarantee benefit.

Any chance the same is happening here? Any?

Nah.

We can't say tube amps are superior. Any more than we can say sims are. [insert proof supporting either statement here] But one costs a lot of money, one much less. The cost consideration is a huge factor for many people on this forum. We are talking about home recording here, right? [if we can actually set aside the derailing "using sims live" discussion] A professional musician and a home recording artist on this forum overlap in the fact they make music, but likely have more differences than they share things in common. When I plug in I'm not trying to be a professional, I just do this for fun. I don't need top dollar stuff to perform and make good music. I think that describes a huge %% of members here. Listen to the stuff being posted in the mix feedback forum. There's no record contracts being signed there. And with our cheap, crappy, inferior gear we plug along making damn good music.