Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
^^^^^^^ this ^^^^^^^^^^^^
ashcat_lt
Well-known member
You haven't read the whole thread. Personally, I've been saying "do what though wilt" the entire time. In response I've been told that what I do is quite literally invalid. Whatever...Lt. Bob said:
You had it right. Was the other guy failed the test.Greg_L said:
You don't, but if you're going to continue to insist that there is a difference, and that you can tell...miroslav said:
Oh believe me I have. The reasons I jumped into sims as soon as it was economically viable are still the same today, and considering that today's sims sound so much better and are so much more flexible than back then, I'm even further from going back.
Please don't confuse anything I've said with the weird crap coming out of Ove. I'm certainly not making any claims re: whatever the fuck "pure sound" means or any of that. I'm saying that there are good, practical reasons why sims can work better for some people, that tone is tone no matter what box it comes out of, and that nobody should have a right to tell a person that they're doing it wrong just because they're not using the same tools that the other guy prefers.
But...I'd like to mention that there are a whole lot of things that people do with guitars, and tube amps aren't particularly good at all of it. Now, you might claim that they're "just making noise", but people said that about Hendrix and Angus and all the others, too.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
I've read every word of the thread ...... and I certainly haven't even alluded to the idea that what you do is invalid.
I've said over and over in this thread and every other thread of it's type for years that the ONLY thing that matters is what works for the individual ..... period. No one's EVER seen me sneer at sims. I personally prefer amps at this point but I DO gig with modelers sometimes for the very reasons you enumerate.
And the only real push back I've seen in this thread is that many don't agree that sims are making huge inroads for gigging and speaking as a guy who gigs more than anyone here can relate to, I answered the question as to what I have seen out in the working world I inhabit.
But then I immediately said I had no doubt that as time went by they'd take over more and more until they did mostly replace amps.
Mostly everyone else was in the same general direction ....... do what works for you.
Now ...... there was a little amp snobbery from a few but not any worse than some sim guys asserting that sims are better which is no more true that amps are better.
Guys ...... once again I find myself pointing out that it's about the music you create with it.
Sure ... there are some people who don't seem to do anything but show how good they can get whatever sound they're after in a clip and that's as far as it goes.
But for most of us, hopefully, there's some ultimate goal in mind musically.
For me it's about live playing most of all.
For most of you it's the recording arts and getting a good tune and performing/producing it well.
Either way ..... I don't get why people get SO worked up about this stuff.
I have a LOT of nice amps and guitars ....... I don't give a shit about any of them ....... they're just tools for making music.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
No, I really don't....and yes, I will and can insist that there IS a difference and that I can tell...and I think a lot of people can.
What "other" things people do with guitars is irrelevant for this conversation. We are talking about the tone of a tube amp VS anything else you plug a guitar into.
You wanna sell some sim because it does something unusual to the guitar tone....that's fine....but the point you and some have wanted to make either directly or in some roundabout way, is that amps are "dead", and that sims sound the same and/or better than amps, etc....
I ain't buying it....and it's got nothing to do with amp snobbery, it's about tone preference....which granted, may be a very subjective thing, but I don't need to do an ABX double blind test to convince myself. I doubt you did some serious ABX tests when you walked away from amps....it was probably 99% about convenience and some other none-tone reasons....which is also fine, but don't now use that to sell something else about sims VS amps.
Yeah...it's about the music, though I do think that tones, and how they are gotten, means a lot to a great deal of people, be it live or recording.
Since you are mostly doing the live thing....there's maybe a point where it's perfectly fine to use a sim or amp or whatever, and I do really understand that there is also a time when it doesn't matter all that much....it's not a tone audition, it's maybe just a basic gig for a typical bar crowd, etc....and they're not going to be too analytical about your tone, so there's not a heck of a lot of reason for you to want to be....
...but I'm sure there were/are times where you DO really listen to your tone and it DOES matter to you.
For recording, there is a much greater "microscope" placed on every little thing....and yeah, even then there are times when most anything can pass for "acceptable" tone.....and I know a lot of folks don't invest too much effort into that kind of stuff, and it's more about just getting it down rather than worrying about subtle tone differences...and that also is fine…for the folks that approach it that way.....
....but that still doesn't remove the perspective or lessen it for people who DO get real picky about tones and stuff. So no one can or should say to them, "oh, it just doesn't matter, who cares, just get it close enough, no one will tell the difference, etc, etc, etc....."
It just seems to me that when these topics come up, it's always the sim/pod users who REALLY feel the need to convince the amp users about something......?
Not sure why that is........... *shrug*
All the amp guys ever say is, "Why don't you try plugging into an amp with a mic in front of it?"....and right after that you get all these posts arguing against that, and for sims/pods.
DM60
Well-known member
See Bob, here is the deal. I am sitting in front of my machine, thinking, man I need to really write and record. I am not progressing my next Opus. Then I come here and well, I get side tracked, I get to delay what I really need to be doing.
Besides, I don't have cable and this is a as close to reality TV I can get and it is less rehearsed/scripted (but it is predictable most of the time).
E
esteely
New member
More and more big name people are making the switch over to things like the Axe Effect II. Huge stacks in smaller "venues" makes absolutely NO sense whatever!!
G
Greg_L
Banned
They never did, but that doesn't make them any less awesome.
E
esteely
New member
Yeah....it kinda does!
G
Greg_L
Banned
How so? So when you go to a rock show, or any show, you'd rather see and hear a laptop on a chair than an actual amp?
ashcat_lt
Well-known member
Yep. I've got several albums that I should be working on, but here I am...See Bob, here is the deal. I am sitting in front of my machine, thinking, man I need to really write and record. I am not progressing my next Opus. Then I come here and well, I get side tracked, I get to delay what I really need to be doing.
Besides, I don't have cable and this is a as close to reality TV I can get and it is less rehearsed/scripted (but it is predictable most of the time).
In fact, I just spent way more time than it's worth building a little experiment that I find particularly informative. Don't expect it's going to change any minds or convince anybody, but here it is. Sound clips which I think are far more meaningful than that weird thing above.
So what I did was to record the exact same performance through both my Vox AC4 (with an SM58 straight in) and the AC30 model in PodFarm 2 (with a "57 on axis", which is close enough to the same thing). There is no real studio trickery here. I used the "amp controls" on the sim to try to match as closely as possible the sound of the real amp and didn't add any EQ or compression, with two important exceptions:
1) I recorded a segment of the amp/room noise through the mic with nothing playing to mix in at the same level as the mic'd track. Else it would have been pretty obvious which of the tracks was recorded through a mic in a living room with the furnace blowing.
B) The closed cab model I could find was the 2x12 that goes with the AC30, and it has an extended bass response which I thought gave it an unfair advantage compared to the single 10 in the AC4. So I slapped a high pass on there and tweaked it carefully to remove that added girth without affecting the rest of the tone.
No, the performances isn't anything spectacular, though I tried to go through a range of dynamics in my playing, and go up and down the fretboard a bit. Yes, it's just lame pentatonic crap. Since most of you seem to be coming from a blues/rock kind of place, I figured it was fairly appropriate.
Vox/PodFarm Stereo
has the tube amp on one side and the sim on the other. Tell me which is which.
Vox/PodFarm Mono A/B uses a square wave LFO to autopan between them, which is then summed to mono. Can you tell when it changes?
Now, I'm fully aware that this is nothing like a scientific test. I certainly don't expect it to change any minds, or really convince anybody of anything, but it's there, FWIW.
E
esteely
New member
I couldn't care less what it comes from!!!!! It could come from a damned iPhone as far as I care. If it sounds better than a stage full of crap then so be it. I love a good tube amp and I have one. But I can make certain amp sims (not all) sound good too!! I've played tons of gigs w/o amps and I have had not one stinking person (even musicians that I know) come up to me and and tell me how bad my tone was. In fact...I've had several come up to me and told me how good it was. I'm a pretty good judge of tone....if it's good and comes from an amp...great. If it comes from a processor....that's great too!! Just my opinion though.....but, lots of big namers making the switch to smaller more compact stuff that can sound as close if not better than 2 or 3 amps on stage reaking havoc volume wise on the "venue" owner and patrons!!...much less the other members of the band. Volume wars suck!
G
Greg_L
Banned
Yep. I've got several albums that I should be working on, but here I am...
In fact, I just spent way more time than it's worth building a little experiment that I find particularly informative. Don't expect it's going to change any minds or convince anybody, but here it is. Sound clips which I think are far more meaningful than that weird thing above.
So what I did was to record the exact same performance through both my Vox AC4 (with an SM58 straight in) and the AC30 model in PodFarm 2 (with a "57 on axis", which is close enough to the same thing). There is no real studio trickery here. I used the "amp controls" on the sim to try to match as closely as possible the sound of the real amp and didn't add any EQ or compression, with two important exceptions:
1) I recorded a segment of the amp/room noise through the mic with nothing playing to mix in at the same level as the mic'd track. Else it would have been pretty obvious which of the tracks was recorded through a mic in a living room with the furnace blowing.
B) The closed cab model I could find was the 2x12 that goes with the AC30, and it has an extended bass response which I thought gave it an unfair advantage compared to the single 10 in the AC4. So I slapped a high pass on there and tweaked it carefully to remove that added girth without affecting the rest of the tone.
No, the performances isn't anything spectacular, though I tried to go through a range of dynamics in my playing, and go up and down the fretboard a bit. Yes, it's just lame pentatonic crap. Since most of you seem to be coming from a blues/rock kind of place, I figured it was fairly appropriate.
Vox/PodFarm Stereo
has the tube amp on one side and the sim on the other. Tell me which is which.
Vox/PodFarm Mono A/B uses a square wave LFO to autopan between them, which is then summed to mono. Can you tell when it changes?
Now, I'm fully aware that this is nothing like a scientific test. I certainly don't expect it to change any minds, or really convince anybody of anything, but it's there, FWIW.
No one cares about using sims for recording. While it's cool you did the test, it's moot. This thread was about using sims live, right?
G
Greg_L
Banned
Maybe you've just never been in a good band with good equipment/players? I've played tons of gigs too. My current band uses two 100w halfstacks and 600 watts of bass power. There are no volume wars or tone problems. Smart players, good players, good tones, no problem. Amps are only a problem for stupid people. Don't blame the amps, blame people.
E
esteely
New member
Bullshit!! I've been in plenty good bands with plenty good players and great equipment! There's no maybe about it. We sound a helluva lot better without the 2 halfstacks and a million watts of bass power!! Sorry dude...just the real dealio!
G
Greg_L
Banned
Sorry, I don't believe you. Too many great bands have been functioning awesomely for decades and will continue to do so without having to use toys and computers live. But you do what you feel is best. I aint mad at ya.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
That's good...'cuz I can't quite get what you were trying to do.
I mean....putting the same performance through an amp and pod going Left/Right in a stereo setup, simply combines them up the middle, so there's not much option to A/B.
If you're going to take the time to run convincing tests, that kind of "test" is not going to really do it....and I think you already realized that.
E
esteely
New member
Yeah...I know man. Don't really care whether you believe me or not and I ain't mad either.....but, lots of big time guys going over to things like that Axe Effects 2 and they don't seem to be having a problem with it.....and it sounds freakin' awesome!!! And the list keeps growing. The old guys will never give up the 100 lb amps and stuff....until they're too old to haul that crap around! Later!!
G
Greg_L
Banned
Never mind that more and more kids are getting started with more and more real amps every day. Ok thanks for stopping by!
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
So you joined HR almost a year ago....and finally, your first and only posts are about this???
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
OK...so I checked out some clips of the Fractal AE2.....just to see what it sounds like.
In this demo clip....the guitar sounds are not "bad" by any stretch... but I just don't really care for them AFA what I happen to like for guitar tones. There is still a synthy-homogenized sound to all the different tones.
And another one..... Bushman Brothers Fractal Audio Axe Effects II Whale Song - YouTube
...again, the guitar sounds are certainly not "bad", and I can see people choosing and using them, but no matter how you cut it …there again is that synthy-homogenized flavor to all the tones…unless you’re stone deaf and can’t hear that.
You don’t need any ABX double-blind test.
And more clips on the Fractal site: http://www.fractalaudio.com/media.php
It's easy to be swayed by some of the playing performances and for the guitar tones to be "masked" by all the backing tracks....plus, it seems all these guys like to use a lot of FX....so all of that combined, sure, you can make it work....but again I'm still hearing a lot of synthy-homogenized tone flavors.
Maybe it's just a tone style thing....and I can see that lots of guys have gone over to this more sim/mod + FX tonal flavor, so it starts to become more the sound people chase after....but I still don't think it's a total "amp killer".
Would like to hear some stripped down tones from the Fractal box....with none of the syrupy FX....just the tone of the modeled "amp".
I wounder if they slather on the FX for a reason....?
In this demo clip....the guitar sounds are not "bad" by any stretch... but I just don't really care for them AFA what I happen to like for guitar tones. There is still a synthy-homogenized sound to all the different tones.
And another one..... Bushman Brothers Fractal Audio Axe Effects II Whale Song - YouTube
...again, the guitar sounds are certainly not "bad", and I can see people choosing and using them, but no matter how you cut it …there again is that synthy-homogenized flavor to all the tones…unless you’re stone deaf and can’t hear that.
You don’t need any ABX double-blind test.
And more clips on the Fractal site: http://www.fractalaudio.com/media.php
It's easy to be swayed by some of the playing performances and for the guitar tones to be "masked" by all the backing tracks....plus, it seems all these guys like to use a lot of FX....so all of that combined, sure, you can make it work....but again I'm still hearing a lot of synthy-homogenized tone flavors.
Maybe it's just a tone style thing....and I can see that lots of guys have gone over to this more sim/mod + FX tonal flavor, so it starts to become more the sound people chase after....but I still don't think it's a total "amp killer".
Would like to hear some stripped down tones from the Fractal box....with none of the syrupy FX....just the tone of the modeled "amp".
I wounder if they slather on the FX for a reason....?