Some problems and splitting audio

  • Thread starter Thread starter grunshaw
  • Start date Start date
G

grunshaw

New member
Hi guys,

I am new here, so hi to everyone! :)

Secondly, I want to pick your brains about a situation I have and how to fix it or enhance it. :)

So first, at my church I run the sound and I am in charge of setting it all up etc. The equipment we have is ancient and also there are some new things thrown in the mix, like our Aviom in ears which is awesome.

We have a 32 and 4 bus mixer. I use the 4 bus to send some audio from specific instruments to a Focusrite Scarlet 18i6 audio interface. The interface has 8 inputs, so we are only utilizing 4 here.

My idea was to take some instruments and vocals directly into the unit, such as drums (which is an electric kit) and the two lead singers which can go straight into the 2 preamps on the Scarlet.

Right now, all instruments and vocals are sent via the insert jacks on each channel via TRS cables to the Aviom in ear system. I thought I would be clever (and obviously I was not) and I got some TRS splitter cables. They have 1 TRS jack on one end I inserted into the channels I wanted to take direct audio from and on the other, they have two TRS female sockets. I then plugged in a TRS to one to send to the Aviom and a TRS to the other to send to my Scarlet.

Wahay I thought, until I tested some things.

I found that audio was still going to the Aviom with no problem at all, but not coming through the main desk and out the masters. It's as if the channel was muted. Couldn't even hear the channel on PFL. I also couldn't hear anything via the monitors on the Scarlet audio interface.

So I started unplugging stuff. As I did, I heard something in the scarlet monitors. That prompted me to mess with the cable. If I balance it half with in the socket, we get sound, all be it bad quality.

That prompted me to switch the cables that run from the splitter to the scarlet with TS cables instead. That worked. suddenly I was getting audio from the drums fine, but not the vocals. I am guessing that is because I was capturing the right side. Still no sound on any of the channels I was attempting to split.

So now I am stuck.

I think you can draw a conclusion on what I want to do here and the lack of funds available means I can't just get a mixer with more subgroup and buses.

Just for reference, here is what I have.

Bass Guitar >> Sub 1 & 2
Drums >> Direct to Scarlet
Violin >> Direct to Scarlet
Piano >> Sub 1 & 2
Lead guitar 2 >> Sub 1 & 2
Lead Vocals 1 >> Direct to scarlet
Backing Vocal >> Sub 3 & 4
Lead vocals 2 >> Direct to Scarlet
Lead Guitar 2 >> Sub 1 & 2
Extra Guitar >> Sub 1 & 2
Backing vocals 2 >> Sub 3 & 4
Backing vocals 3 >> Sub 3 & 4

The idea is that I can mix things at a later stage if I have lead vocals, violin and drumson their own channels.

These all have to go to the Aviom too - so this is why I drew the conclusion I could just split the cable.

What can I do? How can I acheive what I want in the easiest and cheapest form?

If you have any questions about anything I have not covered, or need extra info,do ask.

Looking forward to your help.

James.
 
Last edited:
Hi James,
The reason the sound ceases through the mixer when you plug into an insert is because the Tip to RIng circuit is open circuited. The fix is simple, if you can solder you own leads (and you should not really be in charge of all that kit if you can't!) Link tip and ring in the TRS plugs.

You will no doubt be told that you can keep the through signal by having the plug partially inserted in the jack but this is hardly a professional or reliable way to run a railroad!

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
Hi James,
The reason the sound ceases through the mixer when you plug into an insert is because the Tip to RIng circuit is open circuited. The fix is simple, if you can solder you own leads (and you should not really be in charge of all that kit if you can't!) Link tip and ring in the TRS plugs.
Click to expand...
Hi Dave, thanks for the explanation and fix. I installed most of the new equipment we have in the church such as the Aviom systems and they required some custom crimped cat5. I can't solder and with all due respect, I disagree with your statement that just because I can't solder I should not be in charge of all that kit. The fact is, most of the equipment in there is your basic off the shelf stuff. I also have some significant sight loss, so soldering would not be an option for me personally. I am in charge of this stuff because I know what it does, now how to use it and I'm not afraid to go out there and learn like I am doing hereon this forum. I also am very passionate about sound engineering and audio in general, so any additional things I can learn in the interim is a possitive for me. Please do not take my feedback as a stab at your statement, I am purely pointing out it may have been a bit rash to include that statement in your reply.

A few questions about your answer:
1. Is there not a pre-created cable and if so, what would it be called?
2. On which cable should the solder fix be applied? I ask that because as I mentione,d I have splitters on the insert. When a standard TRS is used DIRECTLY to the Aviom, no problem. It's only when I introduce the splitter. So please can you clarify where this should be applied?
3. Is there any other alternative you know of that will work?

You will no doubt be told that you can keep the through signal by having the plug partially inserted in the jack but this is hardly a professional or reliable way to run a railroad!

Dave.
Click to expand...
100% in agreement here. Balancing half in / half out is not an option.
 
Specifically what mixer is it? I'm assuming it doesn't actually have individual direct/tape outs per channel? Does it have any aux sends that you're not using for other things?

If the Insert point is a single TRS jack, then it is unbalanced send on ring and unbalanced return on the tip with a shared ground on the sleeve. This will be a switched jack wired so that with no cable connected the tip and ring are shorted. Stick a cable in and that connection is broken. It is meant for something like a compressor where you'd have the ring going to the comp's input, and the output going back into the mixer on the tip.

I don't think that either of the devices you're trying to connect will be sending anything back to the mixer from their inputs. Frankly can't figure out how it ever worked...
 
ashcat_lt said:
Specifically what mixer is it? I'm assuming it doesn't actually have individual direct/tape outs per channel? Does it have any aux sends that you're not using for other things?

If the Insert point is a single TRS jack, then it is unbalanced send on ring and unbalanced return on the tip with a shared ground on the sleeve. This will be a switched jack wired so that with no cable connected the tip and ring are shorted. Stick a cable in and that connection is broken. It is meant for something like a compressor where you'd have the ring going to the comp's input, and the output going back into the mixer on the tip.

I don't think that either of the devices you're trying to connect will be sending anything back to the mixer from their inputs. Frankly can't figure out how it ever worked...
Click to expand...

Thank you for the very useful information.

I don't know specifically what that mixer is off hand - I know it is vey old, about 17 years or so. From memory, there are 3 jacks per channel - 1 is XLR and two are 1/4". I would imagine that one of them is a line input, but I haven't looked back there for a while so I can't confirm until I check it. The other is the single insert jack.

Here is the thing, a store bought TRS cable (actually 12 of them from channels 7 - 20 skipping 11) goes into the Aviom distributer using these insert jacks on each channel. I would imagine, based on your description that the aviom is returning the audio to the channel, given that it works flawlessly. It is only when I insert the TRS splitter in and send the signal to two units the problem occurs. Somewhere, signals must cross and short the channel, causing it to mute - I don't know. :)

To answer your question, yes we have 6 aux sends per channel, 4 of which are used, leaving me with 2 of them. Are you saying I could utilize these spare sends on the channels I want to record with?

Finally, I have come across this device which is a Mic splitter I can place between the mixer and the mic / input and then send the master to the desk the the isolated to the recorder. Would this be a better solution and more to the point, would it work with instruments?

amazon.com/gp/product/B00079P7T8/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A2LXBKOLL3J3K6

I can't post URL's yet so you'll have to add the http : / /

One last thing - you said it would be unbalanced, does that mean I could use TS cables instead and maybe split a TS cable, or would we still be facing the same issue? Perhaps the Aviom requires TRS (I seem to remember something specific like this) to function correctly.

Guys, thanks so much for all your assistance here.
 
I spent way more time then I can really afford trying to figure out how the aviom end might be wired, but I've decided it doesn't much matter. One way or another it's sending the signal back to the tip of the mixer's input. Fine. So how did you break that connection?

Are these actual TRS splitters - TRS M > 2 x TRS F? Or is it rather an insert cable - TRS M > 2 x TS F (tip on one and ring on the other)? That confusion would explain the whole thing.

I didn't follow the link to the mic splitter, but it'll probably work to split anything that's currently working plugged into the XLR mic ins - including any instrument DIs.

Honestly, I find myself wondering what you intend to do with these recordings that the board mix isn't good enough???
 
ashcat_lt said:
I spent way more time then I can really afford trying to figure out how the aviom end might be wired, but I've decided it doesn't much matter. One way or another it's sending the signal back to the tip of the mixer's input. Fine. So how did you break that connection?
Click to expand...
The Avoim system kept working and sending audio to the personal mixers on stage wiht no problem at all, but the channel muted and so did the signal to the Scarlet when I put everything into the splitter, which leads me to your next question...
Are these actual TRS splitters - TRS M > 2 x TRS F? Or is it rather an insert cable - TRS M > 2 x TS F (tip on one and ring on the other)? That confusion would explain the whole thing.
Click to expand...
These are actual TRS splitters TRS M > 2x TRS F. Connected into each TRS F are standard TRS M > TRS M cables that run to the recorder and to the Aviom

I didn't follow the link to the mic splitter, but it'll probably work to split anything that's currently working plugged into the XLR mic ins - including any instrument DIs.
Click to expand...
Exactly what I figured, but I wanted to check. Perhaps I will buy one and test it out, then spring for the others later.

Honestly, I find myself wondering what you intend to do with these recordings that the board mix isn't good enough???
Click to expand...
Well, there are a lot of parameters here. Firstly, the equipment used including the wiring. Whoever put this in back in the 90s did a strange job. We have different guage wires twisted together for speakers cabling, we have different wattage poweramps and speakers in a central stack that bust out in the center of the room and we have 1 set of small speakers on the left and right of a large room. The problem is the church was extended to include the new sanctuary.The room shape is almost heart shaped. Coupled with this, left and right are not wired up correctly, so left goes to 4 speakers, which are positioned left and center, and right goes to 4 speakers right and center. They are all mixed brands of speakers with mixed ohm ratings.

Given all this, and more, the mix I have to create for the live room is not suitable for any recording at all. We even have feeds from the desk that go to the video room for local cable channel and they stopped taking our recordings because they were so messed up with levels everywhere.

The ideal thing here would be for me to get every single vocalist and instrument on their own track to create the final mix down later - but it's not going to happen.

You have to remember, this is a church, a very tight one at that - they wont shell out for new gear or a better setup - or even a professional to come and audit the system and make recommendations.

I have to work with what I have, and I have to spend my own money to do it. I have nothing wrong with donating what I can to the church at all - but it has to be on my budget and I can't go in there and rip everything out like I would want to.

I am trying to make the best of a bad situation.

OH, we also have on-stage wedge monitors for those who refuse to use the Aviom system - that creates more room noise adding to my already complex job!

Thanks.
 
Do you have access to a multimeter you can use to sniff out the continuity on this? Do you have a TRS cable you can afford to ruin?

Oooo... The balanced input of your interface is getting exactly the same thing on both T and R. That equals silence! Doesn't really explain why it's not getting back to the mixer.

I'm suspecting that lifting the T connection on the line to the interface will fix the problem, whatever it is. Ideally you'd rewire it so that the mixer tip is not connected, the mixer ring goes to interface tip, mixe sleeve goes to interface ring, and the cable shield is only connected at the interface sleeve.

But I'm still not completely sure why it's not getting back to the mixer...
 
ashcat_lt said:
Do you have access to a multimeter you can use to sniff out the continuity on this? Do you have a TRS cable you can afford to ruin?
Click to expand...
I do not have a multimeter unfortunately - but I do have tons of TRS cables I can sacrifice.
 
ashcat_lt said:
Oooo... The balanced input of your interface is getting exactly the same thing on both T and R. That equals silence! Doesn't really explain why it's not getting back to the mixer.

I'm suspecting that lifting the T connection on the line to the interface will fix the problem, whatever it is. Ideally you'd rewire it so that the mixer tip is not connected, the mixer ring goes to interface tip, mixe sleeve goes to interface ring, and the cable shield is only connected at the interface sleeve.

But I'm still not completely sure why it's not getting back to the mixer...
Click to expand...

So, what you are saying is on one of my TRS cables (as a test) to break the connection to the tip at one end (the end that goes into the splitter and in turn goes to the mixer insert) and give it a shot like that? Am I understanding you correctly here?
 
Buy yourself a meter. The $5 one you get at Harbor Freight or Pep Boys is plenty.

But yeah. Take the cable going from the splitter to the interface and cut the tip wire on one end. Plug it in and see if it helps. If so, then turn the cable around - literally just unplug it and replug it with opposite ends in each hole - and see if it is more or less noisy that way.

Edit - Crap! I think I got my Send and Return transposed. There isn't really a standard, actually. You said you have more than one cable you can sacrifice, right? If lifting the Tip doesn't work then try lifting the Ring.
 
Last edited:
ashcat_lt said:
Buy yourself a meter. The $5 one you get at Harbor Freight or Pep Boys is plenty.

But yeah. Take the cable going from the splitter to the interface and cut the tip wire on one end. Plug it in and see if it helps. If so, then turn the cable around - literally just unplug it and replug it with opposite ends in each hole - and see if it is more or less noisy that way.
Click to expand...
Thanks, I've seen some on Amazon for a few bucks - I'll pick one up on my next order.

OK, I will give that a go - the TRS cables I have are not molded, so I can simply unscrew the protector and remove the wire easily. I will try it and report back - but not for a day or two since it is my daughter's 7th birthday tomorrow and I have to book the time in the church to try this out.

Do you think it would just be better to get 4 of those Mic splitters and just forget about this? I guess I can always experiment while i wait for one to arrive.

Thank you so much for your help - it has been very enlightening and I have picked up some good knowledge from all of this. It is thoroughly appreciated.

By the way, I am running my scarlet directly into an iPad using some software called MultiTrack DAW - It's way awesome. I say this because the software has a "monitor" feature that when enabled sends audio back through the scarlet. It SHOULD only send them to headphones , master and the designated monitor L/R outputs - but I wonder since I had this enabled, if it was a contributer.

Thinking out loud!

Again, thanks.
 
grunshaw said:
Hi Dave, thanks for the explanation and fix. I installed most of the new equipment we have in the church such as the Aviom systems and they required some custom crimped cat5. I can't solder and with all due respect, I disagree with your statement that just because I can't solder I should not be in charge of all that kit.
Click to expand...

I won't go so far as to say you shouldn't be in charge but soldering TRS and XLR connectors (and the adaptors you need) is easy. You can probably teach yourself with the aid of some web pages and You tube videos in about an hour and two mugs of coffee. Once you've done so, you're set for life and can probably save your church hundreds if not thousands of dollars over the years by buying a reel of cable and some bulk connectors. You'll also be able to make you adaptors exactly the length(s) you need giving a much tidier installation.

I strongly encourage you to try it--you'll be pleasantly surprised.

If unwilling to try, you probably won't get a single cable to do your split from an insert (though I'm always amazed at the weird stuff you can find. However, it should be easy to find a TRS splitter cable that'll take your present single out and give two outputs AFTER you've come out of the inserts.

...but the number you want will cost more than a soldering iron, reel of FST cable and connectors.
 
". Please do not take my feedback as a stab at your statement, I am purely pointing out it may have been a bit rash to include that statement in your reply."
Well, I stand by my statement Jim! We all have our limitations. I am now of an age where steadiness of hand and keeness of eye is compromised to the extent that SMount work is all but impossible for me (and even the young 'uns have to use bench maggers!)
I see you are now getting plenty of help from those more experienced than I so I shall bow out and wish you the very best of luck and felicitations of the season.

Dave.
 
Thanks all for your tremendous help on this.

Here is what I have decided to do:

Aux 5 and 6 are free for use on the mixer - so I have plugged those up to two inputs in the Scarlet and I am sending the violin on one and the drums on the other. That leaves the two main vocal mics, which I am going to get two Galaxy Audio JIBY Jacks In The Box Microphone Splitters so I can take advantage of the two built in preamps on the Scarlet and get better vocals.

I already have the aux sends setup and tested, they work great. Just waiting on the mic splitters now to arrive and I will be fully sorted.

Thanks all for your suggestions and kindness - I thoroughly appreciate it very much.

James.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top