How do you treat your overheads and why?

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JG96

JG96

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I'm curious how people here place/eq/phase align their overheads. With the glynn johns method I get good sounding toms and cymbals. But when they are loud enough in the mix the snare starts to sound like doo-doo. Therefore I am trying a spaced pair next time. Do any of you phase align drums to the overheads or roll off lots of lows/mids and use the overheads as cymbal mics? Just curious how other people skin the cat.
 
I gow with a Mid/Side pair.....no speical alignment or adjsutment in the mix, though I may run the OH stereo tracks through a comp at mixdown, depending on the mix.

The M/S pair provides most of the kit sound, and then I only use spot mmics on Mick and Snare to punch them up a bit more as needed.
 
I try to capture the entire kit with one OH mic. To get a nice smooth cymbal sound while still getting body from the shells is mainly what I want.

The overhead should tame the highs from the cymbals but allow them to have presence in the mix. The same goes for the snare and then to a certain extent the toms. Kick doesnt really matter to me that much since regardless of what else I do, its getting miced.

After I get something workable from the OH I just start filling in the blanks to get more meat from whatever the OH didnt get. I just work the other mics on the kit in relationship to the OH until the whole thing is fat, punchy, and clear, then I start processing the signals, and then I mix it down to two tracks. The less mics I use the better, and of course that helps with phase relationships. EQ and compression are last resorts for me, and would only be used on mics other than the OH, because above all else I want the overhead to be perfect as it is.

I personally feel drum micing is an area that's been blown out of proportion. It's probaby my favorite thing to do in the studio, and I feel taking more time to make things right at the source and with minimal mics and gear is really rewarding.
 
JG96 said:
I'm curious how people here place/eq/phase align their overheads. With the glynn johns method I get good sounding toms and cymbals. But when they are loud enough in the mix the snare starts to sound like doo-doo. Therefore I am trying a spaced pair next time. Do any of you phase align drums to the overheads or roll off lots of lows/mids and use the overheads as cymbal mics? Just curious how other people skin the cat.
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I've mic'ed oh's in 4 different ways (mono, spaced, X-Y, and RecorderMan), but I have a preference for spaced in most applications. Reason being is that I find spaced (if done all in phase with snare/kick of course) offers me the most accurate image to my ears and clearly separates the L and R sides of the kit, so it can be nice and wide - but if you want them narrower, do so via the mics and rely less on narrowing the panning - phase is better that way.

I normally use pencil condensers because, come mix-time, I tend to do a gentle high pass somewhere around 100 hz and end up taking out the frequencies that sound muddy or boxy to me, so I don't need mics with a massive low end body (or else I'd use LDC's or ribbons which are also great). I will usually track them cleanly on a fairly transparent pair of preamps with the low cut on the pre around, say, 50-60 hz.

Before doing any eq'ing or any processing at all, I will put both tracks at unity gain and send the outputs of both the L and R mics to an single stereo aux and process it there (I'll hide the 2 individual tracks but keep them active). The only processing I ever find I need/want on the stereo OH track is a multi-mono eq but with the settings the same on both sides. I always tend to reach for the URS API eq emulation. The 4-band version is fine for that application and instead of using a "low pass" knob (since it doesn't have one), I'll just do a low shelf cut at 100.

Oh seldom occasions have I ever compressed the Oh's, but if I do it would be if the crash cymbals are a little swishy and too in your face compared to, say the ride and hats in the picture. I don't use ride or hat mics barely ever, so evenness is important to me in the OH's. So I'll set a side chain eq on the compressor for the certain "pain" frequencies those loud crash cymbals are shooting out. I prefer a fairly transparent compression to achieve this, so no character compressors - just the standard Avid Comp/Lim Dyn 3.

The last thing I ever do is send a bit of them to the main reverb(s) I am using on my mix. I usually have a short room reverb for early reflections and then a plate for a longer tail and a crispy air. So I'll send bit of the OH to either of those or both to taste.

I don't phase align the close mics to the overheads! Having that slight delay from the close mics to the oh's and the rooms is the whole point of achieving depth and space with your drum mics. It sounds unnatural to move around the waveform later if everything was already recorded in phase to begin with.

I think I've rambled enough. Hope that enlightens you! YMMV
 
Spaced pair
No EQ - although sometimes I'll notch out the muck in the low end for a tighter punchier sound. Not usually though.
No phase alignment
No compression
No reverb
 
Mostly This ^^^^

Spaced pair,
Notch or shelve out the low rumble stuff.
I get the phase right before record by mic position or flipping the phase on the channel, I never slide the wave files around to try to fix it later, record it right.
I sometimes use parallel compression on the overheads depending on the drummer, drums, style of music or actual final sound wanted, however I always have a direct no compression signal in the mix from the overheads.
No reverb in the overheads at all.

90% of the drum sound is from the overheads and the room the kit is in.

Alan.
 
Interesting stuff. I never phase align stuff myself. RecordingMaster: Interesting how you use 2 separate reverbs for the reflections and actual reverb. Are each 100% of one or the other or a blend? I never send overheads to revebs but I would definitely be interested in trying that on close mics.
 
JG96 said:
I'm curious how people here place/eq/phase align their overheads. With the glynn johns method I get good sounding toms and cymbals. But when they are loud enough in the mix the snare starts to sound like doo-doo. ...
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That part's probably worth wondering about.. as in how so?
Ya'know I always took the stance 'much rather have a nice hot snare happening in the kit mix than chase after a wimpy one. But this last batch of songs went way past that. Drummer is sparse' playing, few toms and candy going and snare loud as hell (spaced pair). Luckily saw it and added a hat mic half way in which helped. But I've taken it as an experiment is ways to tame the snare in the kit,, limiters on the bus, soft clipping etc, even playing with some alignment for spread, but as usual it's tones that shift primarily.
But I do have a compressor (and eq) at ready in the templates in the drum bus. Typically it might get used lightly to tame and/or shape the transients for the most part. Side chain low filter often to balance if the kick hits it.
 
I did X-Y for years. Lately because of where I'm tracking I'm using a single LDC in figure 8 over the kit for the rejection of the other instruments in the room. On some tunes I ended up using just that overhead and the kick track for the drums. Sounds fat. Oh, and compression on the kick.
 
Hmm. Like the 'mono fat, but do ya miss some spread?

'Spaced pair here BTW is lowish' either side and/or a bit to the rear of the drum stool. That and the gobos is how I keep the room and other inst. down :D
 
I think a good amount of the doo doo sound has to do with not having amazing drums or an amazing room. My drummer intends to upgrade to a Pork Pie Big Black Brass which should be a step in the right direction. I am also intrigued by the mono overhead idea. Especially since I have a single KM84. If I got a ribbon or multi pattern condenser I could try M/S. But I really don't need any more microphones :(
 
I'm not against phase aligning tracks, I just don't do it.......anymore. It works though, if you wanted to go that route.
 
What exactly does it do? It seem you loose depth but what do you gain?
 
JG96 said:
What exactly does it do? It seem you loose depth but what do you gain?
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It's really only useful for the snare. It can really tighten up the snare track. You don't lose depth because you can't un-room the overheads. It's a good trick but you really have to zoom way in and really nail it down. It's just something to try. Sometimes it sounds good, sometimes it doesn't. A better trick IMO is one Rami told me a long time ago, and it's stupidly simple - flip the phase on the snare track. That's it. Works on kicks too. You wanna fatten up your kick and snare? Leave the OH's normal, and just flip the phase on the kick and snare in the DAW. Pretty much works every time.
 
I agree that flipping the polarity on the Kick and Snare mics relative to the OH mics will change their sound in the mix, and that you should always try it and see what you like better.....but it's not always a guarantee that a polaity flip fattens up their sound, it can also give you a more hollow sound.
All depends how evrything blend between the OH mics and spot mics, and where the OH mics are placed relative to the spot mics, and how the frequencies line up from all the mics.

If you use the same mics/positions every time you track, and the same drum kit in the same space, and it sounded good the one time you flipped polarity, then yeah, it will work pretty much every time....for that same setup.
 
Hybrid Glyn Johns/Recorderman (shoulder mic is a little further towards the floor tom). I've never found aything that works better than that set up for me.

I use 4 mics total: 2 OV's, kik, snare. I get 95% of my entire kit sound from the OV's. They're not cymbal mics or tom mics, they're DRUM SET mics. My snare is nice and loud/present with that OV set up and I've been tempted to not even use my snare mic on occasion. But as soon as the rest of the "band" comes in, I find myself needing that snare mic just enough to make a difference.

I don't align my OV's manually. If you need to, then you didn't measure properly to begin with. You shouldn't have to touch them. I do align my snare and kik to the OV's, though.
 
RAMI said:
They're not cymbal mics or tom mics, they're DRUM SET mics.
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:D

Yeah....I too was thinking that earlier when I read the OP.


I also never align the individual drum tracks....not even the Snare & Kick to the OH mics, mainly because I like that time difference, as it gives more of the room flavor.....but in the mix I do tend to push up the spot mics on the Kick and Snare so they have more up-front presence over the rest of the kit from the OH mics.
 
JG96 said:
What exactly does it do? It seem you loose depth but what do you gain?
Click to expand...
The nerdie ver..
The initial state of your snare or kick tone in the close / overhead mix is the comb filtering you've set up by the difference in distances -arrival time. The initial transient is also offset. It might be safe to say aligning for the transient would tend to get some added level (there), but the other thing that becomes notable is in the change in tone- perhaps more somewhat happening in the decay (+/- , your mileage may vary..
A plug that lets you dial in and around a few ms is quite a tone control.
In my trouble' project example earlier I was messing with the snare alignment at times -looking for different tone, or spreading the attack out (I basically had a too loud' too sharp too short sound there), or aligning the kick into the transient to get it stronger. (sure, all new and different tones', but all with ify' success BTW. What was that they say about getting/having the right snare in the first place? :p
 
I see. I have played with delaying a room mic for different tones. It seems that the comb filtering comes into play the same way that predelay on a reverb would. I agree with getting the right snare in the first place. I think its much harder to get a good sound out of a mediocre snare than a mediocre kick drum or toms. Hanukkah harry is bringing me a VT bass deluxe and hopefully bringing my drummer a pork pie BOB.
Thats right y'all its almost Hanukkah! In roughly 2 weeks band practices will sound fatter than old uncle Morris after a massive plate of latkes.
 
Roozter said:
I personally feel drum miking is an area that's been blown out of proportion.
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I'd be inclined to agree with this..........
except that in the home recording sphere, there are now a few different ways of capturing drums without using an actual drum kit oneself {samples after all are kit sounds} and it feels like bit by bit, the art of miking a drum kit is slowly becoming something from the past, being kept alive by a relatively dedicated few.
Because of this, I feel it's important to keep the art alive, the result being that it will feel like it's blown out of proportion. But it's not really. If you go through the threads here, there are proportionally very few threads on miking drums, in comparison to many other subjects in audio. And given that not many are going to go through 14 years of threads, whenever it comes up it's a good reminder.
There are a number of ways to record drums and they all work.......for someone.
 
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