My Track Sounded Awful On Internet Radio

[ace tone]

Maybe you folks can help.

A track that from my band's CD was played on an internet radio station and I thought it sounded terrible. It seems that
the compression/limiting they used made the vocals pump quite noticeably. I had thought the track was alright even if perhaps the kick/snare was a bit much...is that what screwed it up?

 

[JimmyS1969]

There is a bit of overkill subs with the kick drum that I hear on my system. That may have caused that. I wasn't aware that internet radio stations did the kind of overall compression that the air broadcast ones do. I suppose it is up to them to decide.

Best would be to have your tracks mastered before sending to any stations. Then their compression would not have the ability to make your mixes 'pump' like you heard.

Do you have a recording of the internet play?

 

[ace tone]

Good idea...record it from the internet station...wish I'd thought of it at the time! :-(

With respect to 'mastering', I kinda thought I had...and I was conscious of extra sub-lows, and was trying to remove them. I guess I failed...

Without a recording, do you have any idea what kind of compression/limiting settings they would use so I could 'test' other tracks next time?

Thx for listening...

...and obviously, my mixing/mastering tools are inadequate/inconsistent as they have played some other stuff from me and it was fine...

 

[Bobbsy]

Hmmm...quite like that track (which is probably the kiss of death since I'm a tone deaf boring old git).

The trouble with internet radio is that the bit rate can be pretty low--and as the bit rate reduction (I'll call it that to avoid confusion on "compression") gets more severe, the compression artefacts can mount up quickly.

Professional mastering would help a bit as Jimmy says...but you're still playing your silk purse on an internet sow's ear (to mix a metaphor horribly). The other solution is a liberal internal application of beer before listening to yourself on internet radio. This induces the aural equivalent of beer goggles.

 

[JimmyS1969]

Well, in the end of the mastering chain, a limiter is typically placed. If you had used one yourself at the end, you likely could have seen that the subs of the kick drum were the parts getting squashed. A compressor is not able to decide what to compress. If just low end, it will react to it, and cause the 'pumping' result. That being said, you never know what any particular guy uploading tracks for a internet radio station is going to use, or whether he is even listening/cares about what the music sounds like.

Next time, take a bit more time to control the dynamics, in case of someone raping it without your consent. Or, have someone else master it before you send it off. I could have done a simple mastering for you that would likely reduced the problem with the internet radio sound.

 

[Bobbsy]

The trouble is that internet radio can be anything from a feed of a thoroughly professional broadcast station down to a guy in a bedroom with a computer and a broadband link.

The technical standards of everything from the source material and equipment to the internet bit rate can be hugely variable too. It's always going to be tough to cater for all the options.

 

[Bobbsy]

Without a recording, do you have any idea what kind of compression/limiting settings they would use so I could 'test' other tracks next time?

As per my post above, it depends entirely on the internet radio station. Some will have professional compresser/limiters properly set up while the proverbial guy in the bedroom will probably just rely on what happens when he codes to relatively low bit rate MP3 or whatever.

I'll wager there are more of the latter sort around, but...

 

[Tobe]

Without hearing the internet stream it's impossible to know how objective your observation is... the mix of the file you posted here seems fine.

 

[Pinky]

I hear the kick thump that jimmy mentions in his first reply, it's likely the culprit and really shouldn't have been there as a final mix/mastered product. The bass guitar is almost absent in the low end, which would normally sit in some of that space being hogged by that overly present kick drum. Aside from the kick drum, there's almost no bottom end in the mix. What do you use for monitors when mixing?

BTW, the backing vocals are really distracting in parts. They're maybe just a touch too loud. (?)

[on a side note, I noticed Waiting For Superman was posted on your soundcloud page without a single mention of the original artist. At the very least add their name, but really you probably shouldn't post it theer (without their explicit permission) - to a passerby it looks like it's YOUR song :-/ ]

 

[ace tone]

[on a side note, I noticed Waiting For Superman was posted on your soundcloud page without a single mention of the original artist. At the very least add their name, but really you probably shouldn't post it theer (without their explicit permission) - to a passerby it looks like it's YOUR song :-/ ]

My apologies for any incorrect use of the excellent 'Superman Song' by homerecording.com member Yeah. I had been participating in the 'mix this' forum (as you probably know). I did put a comment in the description...but you are right... I should not have done that and I have taken it down.

 

[Pinky]

My apologies for any incorrect use of the excellent 'Superman Song' by homerecording.com member Yeah. I had been participating in the 'mix this' forum (as you probably know). I did put a comment in the description...but you are right... I should not have done that and I have taken it down.

Not a problem, figure you would once it was brought to your attention.

 

[ace tone]

The bass guitar is almost absent in the low end, which would normally sit in some of that space being hogged by that overly present kick drum. Aside from the kick drum, there's almost no bottom end in the mix. What do you use for monitors when mixing?

I neither have professional monitors nor a properly treated room (i know...big surprise huh ) and am using home stereo components. However, I thought I could overcome that by listening in multiple environments. I think I am hearing everything but I just didn't handle what I heard.

But I am confused about the 'lack of bass guitar' comment. I hear bass all over the thing...almost too much.

And.... the song was written by the bass player in my band...surely he would have complained?

BTW, the backing vocals are really distracting in parts. They're maybe just a touch too loud. (?)

Are you speaking about the 'sung' backup vocals...or the silly 'spoken' backup vocals? 'Cause I think I'm gonna actually
defend myself on that call.

 

[ace tone]

Well, in the end of the mastering chain, a limiter is typically placed. If you had used one yourself at the end, you likely could have seen that the subs of the kick drum were the parts getting squashed. A compressor is not able to decide what to compress. If just low end, it will react to it, and cause the 'pumping' result. That being said, you never know what any particular guy uploading tracks for a internet radio station is going to use, or whether he is even listening/cares about what the music sounds like.

Next time, take a bit more time to control the dynamics, in case of someone raping it without your consent. Or, have someone else master it before you send it off. I could have done a simple mastering for you that would likely reduced the problem with the internet radio sound.

You know? I was gonna post some tracks here before we made some CD's...but with everyone in my band signing off on everything I thought I was OK...and I still think it is pretty much OK for what it is. Note we are all middle aged folks in a bar band....

For 'mastering', I was just using a multi-band compression in Sonar (from Sonitus I think) with the Boost 11 plugin at the end...and I did try to tame the sub-lows with some EQ at the start of the chain (as I had read somewhere....probably here) about that screwing things up.

I guess I never thought about what might get done to it after it left my basement...never too old to make rookie mistakes I suppose.

Gonna revisit the track (and the others as well), just in case we have to make some more...maybe a remix?

Thx for your comments/help though....

 

[ace tone]

The other solution is a liberal internal application of beer before listening to yourself on internet radio. This induces the aural equivalent of beer goggles.

Love it! ....gonna go upstairs and see if I have any, um, goggles, in the fridge!

thx....

 

[Pinky]

The bass is there in the low-mids, but there's zero bottom end to it. It's possible it doesn't exist in the captured signal (per the bassist's own desired tone). You would have to solo the track out, apply some gain to the sub 100hz band, and see if anything's there.

The backing vocal parts kinda come and go in the stereo field, which is the distracting part. If they were lower in the mix (at times) it would stop trying to draw my attention from the main/lead vocal which is always there, but seems to compete at times with the backing vocals. Backing vocals are supposed to be just that - backing vocals.

Your mix is by no means BAD, but there's small improvements that can be made that will help elevate it and make it enjoyable on more formats (whether streamed online, or played on a MP3 with ear buds). Playing the mixes on multiple sources is fine (and necessary), but you still need a touchstone that you can come back to that acts as a frame of reference for making those final adjustments. It's hard to get around having at least one high quality playback device as your default.

Keep in mind that while we have personal preferences for what we like in a mix, there's still overriding rules that govern all mixes. There's a lot of other things I've not mentioned that I would personally change drastically. What I've mentioned are things I think are basic elements in this mix that likely need some tweaking, especially in light of the intent in the first post and obvious issue with the kick causing your internet radio streaming issue. Sometimes small adjustments can go a long way.

In addition, I'm a huge fan of the Waves L3 maximizer plugin for basic mastering. I like the Loud and Proud builtin preset and find it works well for most properly done mixes.

 

[ace tone]

The bass is there in the low-mids, but there's zero bottom end to it. It's possible it doesn't exist in the captured signal (per the bassist's own desired tone). You would have to solo the track out, apply some gain to the sub 100hz band, and see if anything's there.

Hmmm...I checked back in my mix...and i had intentionally EQ'd the bass to reduce sub 100hz...I guess I didn't want it to fight with the kick drum...and it seemed to work..made it less muddy..but yes...its exactly what you said. Is my thinking flawed here?

And of course...now that you mentioned the vocals...I'm starting to agree with you that the backing vocals are messing up the focus of the lead vocals...

 

[Bobbsy]

Just for the record, taking decisions on a mix based on the reproduction on heavily compressed, low bit rate internet radio is like judging a gourmet meal on its ability to reheat in a microwave.

 

[Pinky]

Hmmm...I checked back in my mix...and i had intentionally EQ'd the bass to reduce sub 100hz...I guess I didn't want it to fight with the kick drum...and it seemed to work..made it less muddy..but yes...its exactly what you said. Is my thinking flawed here?

You may need to work on the kick drum to allow it some shape/presence without it being so muddy and conflicting with the bass guitar. The kick is mostly just the thump, see if you can trim 60hz and below from it and raise it in the mix to see if it can push through without bumping head swith the bass guitar.

 

[Iechineband]

It feels very 'boomy' on my monitors, but I cant say much without hearing the broadcast you described.

 

[DM60]

Just for the record, taking decisions on a mix based on the reproduction on heavily compressed, low bit rate internet radio is like judging a gourmet meal on its ability to reheat in a microwave.

That's wrong?

Update:
As soon as I posted that, the Pillsbury dough boy showed up in the advertisement.