Advice for noob classical recordist

[Todd129]

Hi this is my first post.

I have been recording my classical mandolin ensemble live for about 3 months now. I have recorded three public concerts so far using my only gear, which is a Zoom H4N.

I'd like to start getting better recording results and I am not sure what the next steps should be in terms of getting more professional equipment. For example, I could acquire some better microphones to plug into the Zoom unit, or dump the Zoom and go with something else altogether if the Zoom doesn't have the greatest specs.

Here are the recording results I'm unhappy with and that I want to address: 1) The mandolin ensemble is very quiet and there has been some hiss; I am cranking the Zoom up to 85+/100 to get good signal. 2) I am also unhappy with the tone I'm getting for these instruments. The sound is more bell-like in real life, and the recordings are coming up a bit one-dimensional and with too much harshness. One large mandolin has a very tubby sound in real life, and that doesn't come across accurately at all.

My Zoom has been really useful for practice time, and I love being able to bring something portable and battery operated to our performances. That said, I'm willing to spend about $1,000 to improve sound quality while meeting the portability requirements.

Any guidance from the experts on the board would be a huge help on my recording journey. Many thanks, Todd

 

[Massive Master]

One thing you're going to want at some point are a pair of omni condensers -- That being said, the first thing I'd do is grab a pair of Behringer (whatever their measurement mic is - EC8000?). They're pretty decent for what they are, low-voltage phantom (easily supplied by your Zoom, although I'd set it for 48v anyway and run it from the power supply) and reasonably quiet.

Experiment with those for a bit (if I recall, you can use the built-in mics and externals at the same time) keeping in mind that you can get all sorts of horrible sound being only inches away from a wonderful sweet spot. You can have anywhere from near-mono to terribly exaggerated and problematic stereo moving them only a foot or so.

But you're going to need 'em anyway, so you might as well start experimenting with those. They'll probably wind up as distant room mics -- But in a good room, that might be all you need anyway.

 

[Todd129]

Thanks for this interesting advice

One thing you're going to want at some point are a pair of omni condensers -- That being said, the first thing I'd do is grab a pair of Behringer (whatever their measurement mic is - EC8000?). They're pretty decent for what they are, low-voltage phantom (easily supplied by your Zoom, although I'd set it for 48v anyway and run it from the power supply) and reasonably quiet.

Experiment with those for a bit (if I recall, you can use the built-in mics and externals at the same time) keeping in mind that you can get all sorts of horrible sound being only inches away from a wonderful sweet spot. You can have anywhere from near-mono to terribly exaggerated and problematic stereo moving them only a foot or so.

But you're going to need 'em anyway, so you might as well start experimenting with those. They'll probably wind up as distant room mics -- But in a good room, that might be all you need anyway.

Do I close mic with these for the smallest ensembles (duet and trio) or use them at a distance? Thanks!

 

[Tom Hicks]

there are various techniques for placement:

spaced omni pair with the 3/1 rule

ORTF with cardioids

mid-side (MS) with omni or cardi mid mic and figure of 8 side mic

there are plenty of other possible ways to record in a classical style, these three techniques are some of the popular examples.

 

[Massive Master]

Do I close mic with these for the smallest ensembles (duet and trio) or use them at a distance? Thanks!

I'd mess around and talk while you're doing it. Look up "Jecklin Disk" (I hope I spelled that right). More or less a simulation of what your head hears if that's what you're shooting for. But you can put them close, far, together, apart --

I used to have the artist(s) perform something repeatedly while I moved mics around and I'd say what I was doing -- "Moving the left mic back 3 feet" -- "Mics 1 foot apart and five feet from the source" -- "Mics 20 feet back and 3 feet apart" -- Then go back and listen to what they sounded like at those points. What you're looking for is what you're looking for - what the recording is asking for. Close and intimate, distant and spacey, the room plays a big role there also of course. You might try the built-in XY close up and the omni pair a few feet apart 5 feet back - Or 10 - Or 50.

 

[Todd129]

Many, many thanks, guys, for the useful advice. I'll follow the omni mic advice and work with them on my Zoom as a next step to getting more acceptable results.

BTW am I correct that a Jecklin disc is going to run me about $250? I googled it and found one source (core sound) selling them in this price range.

Todd

 

[Massive Master]

You can make something for about ten bucks if you're feeling it.

 

[Bobbsy]

Just to throw in another option (if only to show there are lots of ways to bake a cake) I tend to use small diaphragm condensers in X-Y stereo mode rather than spaced pair, ORTF or M-S.

The other thing to consider is that, with classical, the acoustics of the room are almost like another instrument. If you can beg/borrow/steal access to an old church (on the assumption that old castles with great halls aren't common where you are!) or something, that can make a huge difference.

With any of these more distance miked stereo techniques, positioning is hugely important and time spent playing with both the height of the mics and their distance from the ensemble will be time well spent.

 

[Todd129]

Hi there guys--

Another quick question I have for you concerns mic cables, since I will need 2. I went over to my local guitar center and the guy was selling me on these "Mogami" cables -- which were expensive in long lengths that I would require for setting out a pair of omnis. Is this "Mogami" stuff B.S. ? It would run me more than the cost of the mics! Thanks, Todd

 

[Todd129]

Just to throw in another option (if only to show there are lots of ways to bake a cake) I tend to use small diaphragm condensers in X-Y stereo mode rather than spaced pair, ORTF or M-S.

The other thing to consider is that, with classical, the acoustics of the room are almost like another instrument. If you can beg/borrow/steal access to an old church (on the assumption that old castles with great halls aren't common where you are!) or something, that can make a huge difference.

With any of these more distance miked stereo techniques, positioning is hugely important and time spent playing with both the height of the mics and their distance from the ensemble will be time well spent.

Hi there--thanks for your note. What I've been doing so far is kind of like your suggestion. I put my zoom h4n up on one long mic stand, about 8 feet up. The mic is centered on the ensemble and pointing down towards them. I set the condensers to "120 degrees" instead of 90. Is this wrong?

 

[Massive Master]

Is this "Mogami" stuff B.S. ?

Mogami is fine, but 90% of the cables out there are fine. Just about anything with Switchcraft or Neutrik connectors is going to be fine.

I'd tend to stay away from exceptionally cheap cables with molded plugs for instance...