Is a mic preamp worth it?

[miroslav]

Can you link to a post where I did that unfairly?

IMO....whenever you out-of-hand, and without naming a specific brand/model, reduce "high-end" audio gear to nothing more than a "handfull of 50 cent components"....it's unfair.
There is IMO....no "fair" way to do that , in that manner.
You've done that on more than one occasion in varous threads in the past, when the topic of high-end gear came up...and in this thread too, when you posted "ding, ding, ding, give the man a ceegar".

Of course....you got defensive about your own product when I gave the example of how it would sound if we just looked at Real Traps on a component level...though you also added in the labor, manufacturing, shipping to lift up the price/cost...but you never give that concession when you reduce high-end audio gear to "50 cent products".

If you are going to talk about the value of high-end audio gear...then talk about a specifc product, by name, and at least that might allow the manufacturers (if they so deisre) to maybe reply back and explain their pricing, the same way you did when I mentioned Real Traps.

 

[miroslav]

count me in. I'm fully qualified to build something so point me to a 'styate of the art' pre kit or schematics that I can build for 50 bucks worth of parts and I'll build one.

I'll cover your $50 and give you another $50 to build me one too....but....it has to really be "state-of-the-art".
I don't need something that will just pass/amplify an audio mic signal.

"State-of-the-art" is a big term, and it would have to cover some serious ground to fall into that category.

 

[ecc83]

count me in. I'm fully qualified to build something so point me to a 'styate of the art' pre kit or schematics that I can build for 50 bucks worth of parts and I'll build one. Then we can run some tests right here at HR.
I need a few decent pres but I literally sometimes don't have food money so i'm broke as any of these young newbs.

I would be in your debt if you can point me in that direction.
PM me if you don't want it to get argued over or just put the info in this thread if you don't care.
BTW .. I do believe you when you say it can be done so help me do it.

Low Noise Balanced Microphone Preamp

^ Shows a (needlessly complex IMHO!) variation of the discrete/op amp hybrid amp found in very many mixer channels. An even better and simpler version is in Douglas Self's book "Small Signal Amplifiers and I urge everyone even remotely interested in audio work to buy that book (No! I did not write it! Not nearly so smart!) . His "padless pre amp overcomes the main limitation of the above, namely some distortion at high gain because there is no NFB around the input devices. The book has virtually no math in it. You will need a grasp of basic science and decibels but you can' call yourself anything "audio" if you don't know decibabble!

I will not rip his circuits and I cannot find them in the public domain. I understand the lack of cash friend, been there. I am fairly comfortable at the moment but then I neither smoke nor drink (not gdy2shoes, Doc said stop or die!) I run an old (but reliable) Proton and live in a VERY modest bungalow (Google UK nn55~~) . I am 67.5 but still work 20 hours a week, not many of us old bottle jockeys left tha'knows!

Google for mic pre amp schematics and do look at the application notes of the "THAT" Corporation. If you can source a decent 1:4 mic traff the venerable NE5534 makes a very good pre amp.

Dave.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Low Noise Balanced Microphone Preamp

^ Shows a (needlessly complex IMHO!) variation of the discrete/op amp hybrid amp found in very many mixer channels. An even better and simpler version is in Douglas Self's book "Small Signal Amplifiers and I urge everyone even remotely interested in audio work to buy that book (No! I did not write it! Not nearly so smart!) . His "padless pre amp overcomes the main limitation of the above, namely some distortion at high gain because there is no NFB around the input devices. The book has virtually no math in it. You will need a grasp of basic science and decibels but you can' call yourself anything "audio" if you don't know decibabble!

I will not rip his circuits and I cannot find them in the public domain. I understand the lack of cash friend, been there. I am fairly comfortable at the moment but then I neither smoke nor drink (not gdy2shoes, Doc said stop or die!) I run an old (but reliable) Proton and live in a VERY modest bungalow (Google UK nn55~~) . I am 67.5 but still work 20 hours a week, not many of us old bottle jockeys left tha'knows!

Google for mic pre amp schematics and do look at the application notes of the "THAT" Corporation. If you can source a decent 1:4 mic traff the venerable NE5534 makes a very good pre amp.

Dave.

thanks ..... I don't have a problem with math though ..... majored in aerospace engineering for a few years before they quit drafting people to send to Viet Nam ... then I went on the road.
Yeah, I'm 62 and I work more like 40-70 hours a week ...... I wish I could cut back but it will never happen.
I will get the book and I will build one in say, the next month or two. When I have it we'll see what we can decide on how it is.

 

[ecc83]

thanks ..... I don't have a problem with math though ..... majored in aerospace engineering for a few years before they quit drafting people to send to Viet Nam ... then I went on the road.
Yeah, I'm 62 and I work more like 40-70 hours a week ...... I wish I could cut back but it will never happen.
I will get the book and I will build one in say, the next month or two. When I have it we'll see what we can decide on how it is.

Ok, Duggy S also has quite a lot to say about audio BS and berates op amp makers who claim their chip have a better "sound" due to some internal structure or other.

He is ruthlessly systematic. For instance he has tested various capacitors and found that polyester types produce a small but measurable amount of distortion. Polyprop and polystyrene are however down at the limits of the (AP!) test rig (note! such results do NOT give credence to the grossly price inflated caps sold to unwitting guitarists. We are down at 0.004%thd here, WAY below a gitamp and in any case you need more than 5volts on the cap to get a reliable measurement at all). Electrolytics are of course "awful" for quality sound but the fix is simple. Make them 10X as big as the lowest frequency dictates for a flat response. Again the thd depends on the volts across the cap.

Dave.

 

[ecc83]

"I don't need something that will just pass/amplify an audio mic signal. " But that is all you want a good mic pre amp to do? (in the context of this thread).

"The closest approach to the original sound" (with apologies to Mr Walker, may he r.i.p.)

Sometimes Miroslav I think you either don't get "engineering" or you are being deliberately obtuse.

Dave.

 

[miroslav]

"I don't need something that will just pass/amplify an audio mic signal. " But that is all you want a good mic pre amp to do? (in the context of this thread).

"The closest approach to the original sound" (with apologies to Mr Walker, may he r.i.p.)

Sometimes Miroslav I think you either don't get "engineering" or you are being deliberately obtuse.

Dave.

I'm talking in the context of "state-of-the-art"..which would be more than just pure "straight-wire gain" IMO.

It should have all the pro, state-of-the-art features and functionality....for $50.

That's not being obtuse...just the expectation of something that is "state-of-the-art".

 

[WhiteStrat]

I'm talking in the context of "state-of-the-art"..which would be more than just pure "straight-wire gain" IMO.

It should have all the pro, state-of-the-art features and functionality....for $50.

That's not being obtuse...just the expectation of something that is "state-of-the-art".

Absolutely! Dude--I totally agree with you.

Wait--what is "state-of-the-art" again? I know that must sound killer--but what is it?

 

[ecc83]

I'm talking in the context of "state-of-the-art"..which would be more than just pure "straight-wire gain" IMO.

It should have all the pro, state-of-the-art features and functionality....for $50.

That's not being obtuse...just the expectation of something that is "state-of-the-art".

Don't be daft! Anything different from "straight wire with gain" is distortion.

(having a LOT of trouble from Amzon smart search atmo. can anyone help?

 

[PRHunt]

If you want to experiment with monolithic mic preamp chips, you can get a pcb for $8 from here: Ultra Low Noise Low Distortion BAL Mic Amplifier PCB | eBay

Can't vouch for the quality of the pcb, but for $12 delivered, there is minimal risk.

You could build this up with any of these preamp devices: INA217, SSM2019, or THAT1512.

The boards provide an unbalanced output, so you'd need to add balancing and/or line driving if that is needed. You could accomplish this using a DRV134 or a THAT1646.

Obviously, these are going to be "straight wire" preamps...

 

[PRHunt]

It seems to me ironic that the pursuit of a desirably distorted sound can cost considerably more than a clean undistorted sound.

When an output transformer alone costs, say, $30-40, you just know that the cost per channel is going to be higher, even without fancy resistors and caps. Throw in your favourite discrete op-amp and an input transformer and the $ per channel in raw parts quickly ramps up.

 

[PDP]

I recently upgraded from a Steinberg ur22 to an SSL alpha channel. Pretty close to what we're talking about. The Steinberg pres are about 50 bucks each. The SSL was 600.00 (1000 new which I do think is overpriced) In a blind test, at -12db recording level, there is no way I could pick out which is which. The Steinberg sounds incredible for 120 dollars. For me it was still worth the upgrade. The SSL has a nice VHD for adding harmonics, a really sweet EQ, and a basic limiter which is great if you want to drive the sound, (which is something the Steinberg cannot do, anything more than that intitial setting and the Steinberg craps out). For me to think I could whip up an SSL with some PCBs and soldering iron is absurd. Working in my occupation for a few days paid for the SSL. It would take me weeks to build a frankenstein preamp, and I still doubt it would be as useful as the SSL unit.

So for me, I prefer a preamp and PCI card over a USB AI, even if it costs a few hundred bucks.

 

[miroslav]

Don't be daft! Anything different from "straight wire with gain" is distortion.

Now you're being obtuse.
We can debate what "state of the art" means AFA preamps go, but to me it means a preamp that offers something more...and no, I'm not talking about just more "distortion" VS clean straight-wire gain.
As I already said....it would be a preamp that offers a good deal of pro features and options, and the build quality and reliability that can be proven in daily hands-on studio use that one would expect from a "state of the art" preamp.

Something like a Groove Tubes ViPre is an example of a high-end single-channel pre with a lot of great features not found on more common fare. Though it can even be a more basic preamp with typical features but of a very high quality build, like a Rupert Neve Portico 5012 or a Grace m201.

Can you build one for $50 that would match up to any of these, spec-for-spec and feature for feature, with equal build quality, and then put it in an high quality enclosure and also provide the some warranty and service to back it?

I'll agree that the prices on name-brand gear are also tied to the brand's reputation....which is nothing unusual when you have gear built by manufacturers with excellent history and really good following in pro audio circles....
...but even if you shave off the pure "rep" from their price tags, they would still be worth a whole lot more than $50.

 

[Ethan Winer]

It seems to me ironic that the pursuit of a desirably distorted sound can cost considerably more than a clean undistorted sound.

I agree. Distortion is a "commodity item" that is simple and inexpensive to create.

--Ethan

 

[Ethan Winer]

IMO....whenever you out-of-hand, and without naming a specific brand/model, reduce "high-end" audio gear to nothing more than a "handfull of 50 cent components"....it's unfair.

Still no link?

you got defensive about your own product when I gave the example of how it would sound if we just looked at Real Traps on a component level...though you also added in the labor, manufacturing, shipping to lift up the price/cost...but you never give that concession when you reduce high-end audio gear to "50 cent products".

I didn't get defensive, I just stated facts. I never said a preamp should cost a couple of dollars, even when that's the cost of the parts. I have pointed out that some budget mixers come with 1-4 perfectly good preamps for $50 to $200 including the rest of the mixer. That's possible only by making stuff in China. For the fourth time (yes Dave, Miroslav is often deliberately obtuse), I object only when a preamp is priced literally 10 to 20 times higher than reasonable, and sold based on BS pseudo-science claims.

If you are going to talk about the value of high-end audio gear...then talk about a specifc product, by name, and at least that might allow the manufacturers (if they so deisre) to maybe reply back and explain their pricing, the same way you did when I mentioned Real Traps.

I did mention summing boxes as a good example of products sold for too much money based on nonsense claims.

Let's turn this around: Please tell us how much you think a quality preamp should cost, and what specific attributes it should have to justify that cost.

--Ethan

 

[miroslav]

You can go find your own posts.....but we've had quite a few of these types of discussions, and you do like to reduce things to "50 cent compontents". Now all of a sudden you're stepping back from that and only objecting to prices 10-20 times higher that reasonable.
I guess 8-9 times is OK....?

So if you never said that "a preamp should cost a couple of dollars even if that's the cost of the parts"....how come you always only talk about the cost of the parts when talking about high-end audio gear?
You go out of your way, sometimes mockingly, to reduce the value/need for any type of high-end gear, and it plays real well on home-rec forums where low budget is king....but not so well on the pro forums.

Whatever Ethan........

 

[XLR]

I mainly record Guitar and vocals in case you were wondering.

Hey Adrian. A higher quality mic pre than the preamp built into your interface can give you a different color, a cleaner sound with lower self-noise on quiet sources, and other qualities but the the bigger issue is how the source sounds in the room. If the player is getting a good sound on the guitar, the vocalist sounds good and knows how to work a mic, and the room acoustics don't get in the way, it's relatively easy to get good recording quality IME. Mic placement is a big part of it. An inch in distance and 10 degrees in angle can give you a completely different sound.

 

[LarBear]

Zoom R16

I use the Zoom R-16. Not great pre-amps but decent. The success lies in close micing and LOTS of head room. As stated earlier, despite what the manual says, DO NOT set the gain just below clipping. Get it so there is a decent level showing up on the sliders. Edit the thing in your favorite DAW and you're good to go.

 

[Supercreep]

Talent/Room/Instruments/Microphones/Pres

Where do monitors and converters go?

 

[JimmyS1969]

Talent/Room/Instruments/Microphones/Pres

Where do monitors and converters go?

In the trash with the other bullshit arguments. lol

Seriously, some people need to just let shit go....