Is a mic preamp worth it?

[Bobbsy]

Ah, my friend Dave...the Native Instruments evangelist!

(The DO make good gear but you're almost as bad about your interface as I am about sE mics and Reflexion filters! )

 

[ecc83]

Ah, my friend Dave...the Native Instruments evangelist!

(The DO make good gear but you're almost as bad about your interface as I am about sE mics and Reflexion filters! )

VERY glad to be called friend Bobbs!

Yeah, I do go on about it a bit don't I? Still, I only like to talk about what I know and have and I don't have a great deal of kit* (and y'all have to be judge as to whether I know Jack S!) .
When my goto external AI was the Fast track pro I was quite keen but not so much.
Considering its age the Pro is fine and its latency beats many much later products. But the preamps as I said are feeble and the box really needs cap mics (tho a dymo in front of a cab is quite ok) .

I have used Tascam US 122 and 144 (mk 1's. I think the 144mkll is better?) Ok but even feebler mic pres than the pro IIRC?

I love my A&H zed 10 but it has its drawbacks. I would have liked channel kill buttons and would cheerfully have traded usb and FX for channel inserts.

But the KA6!! MOSTLY I love the so, so solid drivers. The thing just never blinks! (like having 2, 2496's in a tin!) Half an hour ago I plugged it into my works supplied Vista bizz Toshy laptop for the first time in 3 months. "Finding Drivers" 10 secs later, bish-bosh "ready to go". Clicked up Radio 3, super clean Chopin from the HP output into a pair of active speakers that gild the sound of my Sony Bravia 32"....I DO have faults to find! Metering is crude and NI themselves are piss poor at customer relations...Still, we got a man from those other snots, Steinberg on here recently..Hope springs eternal?

*Some of you might also notice that I rarely, if ever comment on sound qualities? That's because I don't hear at all well. My critical "ears" are swanning about on the French coast!
Dave.

 

[Rod Norman]

There are three things that consist to a great recorded sound.

1- the origin of the sound itself.
2- the environment in which the sound is made.
3- the recording chain.

Make sure you have a great sound. Try to deaden the room enough so it doesn't "color" the sound negatively. (I've even used handing canvas drop cloths and open cardboard boxes to trap unwanted frequencies). Then you have left the recording chain. In this I'll only deal with the pre-amps. The best preamp for the price I have found is the Focusrite Twin Trac Pro. The key to its success is the variable impedance knob that lets you dial in the mic's proper impedance. With it I turned an SM57 into an incredibly clear mic sounding like it costs five times as much. With that one feature, the unit i worth much more than its $500+ price point. The rest of the chain has been dealt with in other areas on this forum. I hope that helps. Good Luck,
Rod Norman

Hello everyone! I recently bought an Audio‑Technica AT2050 Condenser mic, and I like the overall sound so far. However with that being said, I recently heard another sample recorded using the same mic, and it was just a lot more clear, warm, and airy sounding. So I'm wondering how does someone with the exact same mic achieve such a superior sound? Is it a good preamp that really makes a difference, or a better audio interface? What do you guys think? Also right now I just have my mic running directly through a cheap M-Audio Fast Track USB interface. I appreciate the tips/suggestions! By the way I mainly record Guitar and vocals in case you were wondering.

 

[hydroflare]

If you have some electronics knowledge, handy with a soldering iron and don't mid getting your hands dirty you can always build your own to suit your own requirements.
I did this one (AX1250 Microphone Preamplifier) for use primarily with large ensembles where a spaced omni and ortf was used and needed to be very low noise and very clean. I've also used it with vocalists and various guitars in the studio with excellent results.

 

[PDP]

The best preamp for the price I have found is the Focusrite Twin Trac Pro. The key to its success is the variable impedance knob that lets you dial in the mic's proper impedance. With it I turned an SM57 into an incredibly clear mic sounding like it costs five times as much.

Interesting, but does that matter when your using a condensor mic?

 

[PDP]

If you have some electronics knowledge, handy with a soldering iron and don't mid getting your hands dirty you can always build your own to suit your own requirements.
I did this one (AX1250 Microphone Preamplifier) for use primarily with large ensembles where a spaced omni and ortf was used and needed to be very low noise and very clean. I've also used it with vocalists and various guitars in the studio with excellent results.

Nice, my friend built his from DIY Mic Preamp Kits - Seventh Circle Audio they sound great.

 

[hydroflare]

I've heard the Seventh Circle Audio ones sound good, however the lack of metering was a problem for me. I like to see peak meters on each channel to allow me to check the gains and signals going out to the converters.
The insert feature was also something I needed, since I have a dual 1176 wired to two channels in the studio for use when re-amping or just adding sound colouration for DI bass or keyboards.

 

[PDP]

I've heard the Seventh Circle Audio ones sound good, however the lack of metering was a problem for me. I like to see peak meters on each channel to allow me to check the gains and signals going out to the converters.
The insert feature was also something I needed, since I have a dual 1176 wired to two channels in the studio for use when re-amping or just adding sound colouration for DI bass or keyboards.

Did you build the compressor too? Those really are sweet looking units.

 

[hydroflare]

Yes, all the projects on the site are things that I have built. Several other things in the pipeline to up soon as well

 

[Ainaudio]

Mic preamp is the same importance as amp/combo for guitar.
You can connect guitar to di-box, then to mixer and get formal sound.
Or get this special color from amp.

The same with mic connection to linear device (mixer, convertor, etc.), sound is maybe more precise, but formal.
Some case you need precise sound, and there are special preamps for it (however - special mics too).
But most case, especially on vocals, you are looking for colored sound.
Most large diaphragm mics are colored itself, but most case not enough for recording.

The only difference between mic an guitar is their output impedance.
Guitar is high impedance source, but mic is low impedance source.
Respective input stages of electronics design are different this case.

Going deeper - the next question is quality and possibilities of mic preamp.
I would suggest tube mic preamp with input transformers (output transformers is good idea too), and with switchable input impedance.
Tube is maybe more noisy, but is not providing dynamic distortion in comparing with solid state devices.
It is important to have tube at the first stage, not only as driving element.
Input transformer is warming sound, and if special made - provides switchable input impedance.
Different input impedance is affecting initial sound as no one other processing can do it.
However - transformer can be by-passed too.

 

[JimmyS1969]

Mic preamp is the same importance as amp/combo for guitar.
You can connect guitar to di-box, then to mixer and get formal sound.
Or get this special color from amp.

The same with mic connection to linear device (mixer, convertor, etc.), sound is maybe more precise, but formal.
Some case you need precise sound, and there are special preamps for it (however - special mics too).
But most case, especially on vocals, you are looking for colored sound.
Most large diaphragm mics are colored itself, but most case not enough for recording.

The only difference between mic an guitar is their output impedance.
Guitar is high impedance source, but mic is low impedance source.
Respective input stages of electronics design are different this case.

Going deeper - the next question is quality and possibilities of mic preamp.
I would suggest tube mic preamp with input transformers (output transformers is good idea too), and with switchable input impedance.
Tube is maybe more noisy, but is not providing dynamic distortion in comparing with solid state devices.
It is important to have tube at the first stage, not only as driving element.
Input transformer is warming sound, and if special made - provides switchable input impedance.
Different input impedance is affecting initial sound as no one other processing can do it.
However - transformer can be by-passed too.

Um....No...

And then another no.

Sorry man, this does not make any sense to me...

Oops. EDIT:

Another 'NO'...

 

[Bobbsy]

Mic preamp is the same importance as amp/combo for guitar.
You can connect guitar to di-box, then to mixer and get formal sound.
Or get this special color from amp.

The same with mic connection to linear device (mixer, convertor, etc.), sound is maybe more precise, but formal.
Some case you need precise sound, and there are special preamps for it (however - special mics too).
But most case, especially on vocals, you are looking for colored sound.
Most large diaphragm mics are colored itself, but most case not enough for recording.

The only difference between mic an guitar is their output impedance.
Guitar is high impedance source, but mic is low impedance source.
Respective input stages of electronics design are different this case.

Going deeper - the next question is quality and possibilities of mic preamp.
I would suggest tube mic preamp with input transformers (output transformers is good idea too), and with switchable input impedance.
Tube is maybe more noisy, but is not providing dynamic distortion in comparing with solid state devices.
It is important to have tube at the first stage, not only as driving element.
Input transformer is warming sound, and if special made - provides switchable input impedance.
Different input impedance is affecting initial sound as no one other processing can do it.
However - transformer can be by-passed too.

What Jimmy said except I'll try to go into some more detail.

First off, a guitar amp is an integral part of the sound. In most cases you are actively trying to add a certain amount of distortion to the clean guitar sound. Mics and pre amps are different. First, the choice of the mic itself makes a far bigger difference to the sound (as does any transducer) and, second, the choice of a mic pre amp is generally to add subtle colourations rather than gross distortion to the sound.
https://homerecording.com/bbs/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4085839
Second, and a big problem for home recordists, very often the microphone-pre-interface chain has to be a once size fits all solution. The same mic likely has to record male vocals, female vocals, acoustic guitar and maybe drum overheads. A heavily coloured mic pre amp that suits your voice almost certainly will not suit your wife singing or your Martin acoustic. Pro studios have a cupboard full of expensive mics and another cupboard full of pre amps to add whatever quality they want for a specific voice or instrument. What this means in practice is that you're often better off getting what you call a "formal" sound and EQing later for any colour you wish to add.

Your bit about impedance is a total non sequitur. Yes, guitar pickups are a higher impedance source but an even bigger difference is the output level. Mics are very low level, hence the need for an ultra quiet mic pre amp. Guitars are part way between mic and line level but closer to line level usually. They rarely need a lot of gain before going straight into an amp or mixer.

Finally, tube pre amps can sound good on specific sources but, as per my first comment, they're not good on everything. Beyond that, though, you also need to be aware of matching the quality of your equipment. Putting an ultra-expensive pre amp between an entry level mic and an entry level interface is simply a poor allocation of resources. There's not much point in putting Ferrari carbon fibre brakes on a Skoda. The OP will be better off following the advice to work on the acoustics of his space with whatever budget he would have had for a pre amp.

As for your understanding of impedances, transformers and the like, I suspect you need some more time with a text book.

 

[JimmyS1969]

What Jimmy said except I'll try to go into some more detail.

First off, a guitar amp is an integral part of the sound. In most cases you are actively trying to add a certain amount of distortion to the clean guitar sound. Mics and pre amps are different. First, the choice of the mic itself makes a far bigger difference to the sound (as does any transducer) and, second, the choice of a mic pre amp is generally to add subtle colourations rather than gross distortion to the sound.
https://homerecording.com/bbs/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4085839
Second, and a big problem for home recordists, very often the microphone-pre-interface chain has to be a once size fits all solution. The same mic likely has to record male vocals, female vocals, acoustic guitar and maybe drum overheads. A heavily coloured mic pre amp that suits your voice almost certainly will not suit your wife singing or your Martin acoustic. Pro studios have a cupboard full of expensive mics and another cupboard full of pre amps to add whatever quality they want for a specific voice or instrument. What this means in practice is that you're often better off getting what you call a "formal" sound and EQing later for any colour you wish to add.

Your bit about impedance is a total non sequitur. Yes, guitar pickups are a higher impedance source but an even bigger difference is the output level. Mics are very low level, hence the need for an ultra quiet mic pre amp. Guitars are part way between mic and line level but closer to line level usually. They rarely need a lot of gain before going straight into an amp or mixer.

Finally, tube pre amps can sound good on specific sources but, as per my first comment, they're not good on everything. Beyond that, though, you also need to be aware of matching the quality of your equipment. Putting an ultra-expensive pre amp between an entry level mic and an entry level interface is simply a poor allocation of resources. There's not much point in putting Ferrari carbon fibre brakes on a Skoda. The OP will be better off following the advice to work on the acoustics of his space with whatever budget he would have had for a pre amp.

As for your understanding of impedances, transformers and the like, I suspect you need some more time with a text book.

Thank you for giving detail of my short 'blah blah' Bobbsy! I was in a session and saw the post. I had to give a half assed response.

You said everything that I could not have possibly said-but would if I could.

 

[Protocall]

Definitely! I am using a Presonus Eureka which comes with a Class "A" Preamp, and it made my AT4047 sound way nicer then without

 

[JimmyS1969]

Keep in mind, that if an external preamp is better than what you have in your interface (if you have one), you may see some better results. I depends upon where you are starting from.

If you do not have clean signal within your input chain, you will likely not hear a bit of difference. Unless you are dealing with an internal soundcard, or some crappy conversion device. If the room you are recording in sounds like ass, a preamp will not fix that.

I have a room that is treated quite well, and I spent $1500 on a Vintech X73i. I would give it maybe 5% better overall sound than I was getting from the built in pre's of the Tascam US1800 that I used for most of my tracking. It is these little improvements that can help to get that little edge we want in our mixes.

If I had no room treatment, it would be an absolute waste of money.

Best money I ever spent was controlling the environment I record/mix in. Much less than the Vintech.

BTW, preamps of varying quality and price, give different results. They are dependent upon what you are looking for as far as color or cleanliness in gain. If your room or monitors suck, then look to them for answers and save yourself some cash until you actually have a clue what you are wanting.

Trust me, I have been there...

Class "A"? I'm not even sure what that means... Nothing, if your room sounds like ass. Just sayin....

 

[ecc83]

Mic preamp is the same importance as amp/combo for guitar.
You can connect guitar to di-box, then to mixer and get formal sound.
Or get this special color from amp.

The same with mic connection to linear device (mixer, convertor, etc.), sound is maybe more precise, but formal.
Some case you need precise sound, and there are special preamps for it (however - special mics too).
But most case, especially on vocals, you are looking for colored sound.
Most large diaphragm mics are colored itself, but most case not enough for recording.

The only difference between mic an guitar is their output impedance.
Guitar is high impedance source, but mic is low impedance source.
Respective input stages of electronics design are different this case.

Going deeper - the next question is quality and possibilities of mic preamp.
I would suggest tube mic preamp with input transformers (output transformers is good idea too), and with switchable input impedance.
Tube is maybe more noisy, but is not providing dynamic distortion in comparing with solid state devices.
It is important to have tube at the first stage, not only as driving element.
Input transformer is warming sound, and if special made - provides switchable input impedance.
Different input impedance is affecting initial sound as no one other processing can do it.
However - transformer can be by-passed too.

I am sorry but the above goes by the technical term of Codswallop.

Mic preamps and guitar amps are different in almost every particular.

Mic amps are designed primarily for very low noise and low distortion. Gitamps fetch up (sometimes) with an ADEQUATELY low noise performance and virtually no consideration to linearity. You COULD design a valve guitar amp for very low noise but the techniques used would result in an amplifier that would probably not sound "right" for guitar.

Dynamic microphones are similar in principle to magnetic guitar pickups but not a lot. Again, mic capsules are made for low distortion and are a simple, pure "motor". Gitpups work more less as a variable reluctance device.

Guitar pups are not a "high impedance source" they are medium impedance of about 5-10kOhms. Capacitor mic capsules ARE very, very high impedance (G Ohms) which is why you need a buffer amp inside and why such mics are fairly insensitive to loading.

Valve mic pres CAN and have been made with very low noise, mainly because you can get a noise free "gain" of up to 20dB from an input transformer. But that transformer need to be fairly large, VERY well shielded and very expensive if you are to get a full frequency response and low distortion at low frequencies. ("We" were using valve pres on 4038 ribbons WAY before transistors you know! What has changed is that today it is easy and cheap to equal and exceed the performance of those old, expensive pre amps)

One factor has been overlooked as well? Feeding a $1000 pre amp into the line inputs of an $89 AI is a bit daft. Those line ins will surely be only the mic amps padded down (but not on the KA6 lines 3/4 eh Bobbs?) and so their shortcomings will be carried through.

I still say variable loading of a dynamic mic will be subtle. Like to have some A/B .wav clips GAIN MATCHED! for those with 20-20 lugs to compare?

"Class "A"? I'm not even sure what that means." I know what it means and anyone who designed a mic pre that was NOT class A would be an idiot.

Dave.

 

[JimmyS1969]

I am sorry but the above goes by the technical term of Codswallop.

Mic preamps and guitar amps are different in almost every particular.

Mic amps are designed primarily for very low noise and low distortion. Gitamps fetch up (sometimes) with an ADEQUATELY low noise performance and virtually no consideration to linearity. You COULD design a valve guitar amp for very low noise but the techniques used would result in an amplifier that would probably not sound "right" for guitar.

Dynamic microphones are similar in principle to magnetic guitar pickups but not a lot. Again, mic capsules are made for low distortion and are a simple, pure "motor". Gitpups work more less as a variable reluctance device.

Guitar pups are not a "high impedance source" they are medium impedance of about 5-10kOhms. Capacitor mic capsules ARE very, very high impedance (G Ohms) which is why you need a buffer amp inside and why such mics are fairly insensitive to loading.

Valve mic pres CAN and have been made with very low noise, mainly because you can get a noise free "gain" of up to 20dB from an input transformer. But that transformer need to be fairly large, VERY well shielded and very expensive if you are to get a full frequency response and low distortion at low frequencies. ("We" were using valve pres on 4038 ribbons WAY before transistors you know! What has changed is that today it is easy and cheap to equal and exceed the performance of those old, expensive pre amps)

One factor has been overlooked as well? Feeding a $1000 pre amp into the line inputs of an $89 AI is a bit daft. Those line ins will surely be only the mic amps padded down (but not on the KA6 lines 3/4 eh Bobbs?) and so their shortcomings will be carried through.

I still say variable loading of a dynamic mic will be subtle. Like to have some A/B .wav clips GAIN MATCHED! for those with 20-20 lugs to compare?

Dave.

I understood about half of what you said there. I think you said do something about goodness of yummy tone right? lol!

 

[Bobbsy]

Class "A"? I'm not even sure what that means... Nothing, if your room sounds like ass. Just sayin....

Actually the "Class" of a pre amp (as with power amps) has little or nothing to do with the quality. It's a definition of the topology used, i.e. the circuit design. The class is used much more often to describe power amps than pre amps but the principles are the same. You'll see amps (and, by definition pre amps) designated as Class A, B, A/B, D and G commonly. At the simplest it's to do with current flow through the device with Class A being a relatively inefficient circuit that often runs very hot...but which MAY deliver a bit more detail. A full definition would take many paragraphs--if you're interested, Google is your friend on this one.

However, it's NOT like milk or meat where Grade A (or Class A) is necessarily the best--though the marketing departments at some manufacturers may like people to assume that's the case.

 

[Ethan Winer]

There is nothing magical about a microphone pre amp. You can make a state of art pre for a component cost of less than $50.

Ding ding ding! Give this man a ceegar.

Now, IF you are after subtle "warmf" then you need Neve iron or similar

Yes, and "or similar" can be had for 50 cents with a couple of diodes and resistors to add distortion similar to "iron" and "toobs."

--Ethan

 

[GONZO-X]

gotta hear it to believe it.

arguing about crappy cheap gear, versus extremely well made and designed expensive gear, is a fools errand.