Can you tell if it's been mastered ?

[grimtraveller]

Well, it's almost impossible to tell how good or bad a master is without hearing the pre-master.

I've heard this said or alluded to a few times now and it has always piqued my curiosity. I've never had any recording mastered and I'm really curious as to whether or not I'll be able to tell the difference. I guess I'll find out someday.
A couple of contributors to HR have sent me both pre~masters and the eventual finished product and I simply couldn't tell the difference.
I know this is to do with me and my ears {I dug the music so much, I couldn't find improvements or worse spots ! } but I am interested to know, can you tell if an album has been mastered ? If someone gave you a single copy, limited to {I presume} 0 DbFS and well mixed, but with no information about it, could you tell if it had been mastered ? If so, what would be the tell tale signs ? What sort of things would you be looking for ?
For those of you that have had your own albums mastered, could you see a major difference or was it a more subtle, almost subliminal thing ?

 

[ido1957]

Nowadays, a master will be LOUDER. Although lots of people will tell you there's other purposes behind mastering.

 

[Steenamaroo]

If so, what would be the tell tale signs ? What sort of things would you be looking for ?

There wouldn't necessarily be any.
A perfectly mixed record may only need minor adjustments in volume to keep continuity between tracks,
whereas something that's been mixed in such a way that the highs are piercing or the bass is dominating may need a lot more work.

For those of you that have had your own albums mastered, could you see a major difference or was it a more subtle, almost subliminal thing ?

I could certainly hear the difference. (Record in my sig)
My main concern, and reason for external mastering, was that I personally couldn't guarantee that my mixes would take airplay well, and that was something we were aiming for.
I felt that in someways the masters were a compromise for that peace of mind, but in other ways I was really happy with them.

For example, overall I felt that the songs sounded more 'solid'..(hate using vague terms), but there was something just rounded about the whole thing - Nothing stuck out of the mix.
On the negative side, I wasn't especially happy with the sound of the vocal after mastering, but it had been discussed and I knew the ME had to carry out some work due to sibilance that I didn't/couldn't control myself.
Maybe that's a sign that I need to adjust my listening environment?

I suppose that highlights the dangers of doing your own mastering.

In short, I could tell the difference for sure. Whether it was good or bad largely depended on the quality of my work.
I suppose the better your mix, the less change there will be to notice after mastering.

 

[grimtraveller]

Nowadays, a master will be LOUDER.

Would it be louder than an unmastered mix that peaks at 0 dB ?

whereas something that's been mixed in such a way that the highs are piercing or the bass is dominating may need a lot more work

In theory then, does this imply that mastering can alter mixes ?

On the negative side, I wasn't especially happy with the sound of the vocal after mastering, but it had been discussed and I knew the ME had to carry out some work due to sibilance that I didn't/couldn't control myself.

Does this mean that you preferred the vocal sound beforehand ?
Can an ME make a mix sound, well, worse ? To flip the question, is there a danger that a mixer could get a little slack, thinking that "mastering can fix that " ?

 

[Steenamaroo]

Would it be louder than an unmastered mix that peaks at 0 dB ?

It could appear to be, yes. While the actual peaks wouldn't be any louder, the average level could be higher.
If two mixes peak at zero but one has a dynamic range of 20db and the other 8db, the 8db one will probably sound louder.

In theory then, does this imply that mastering can alter mixes ?Does this mean that you preferred the vocal sound beforehand ?

Yes, mastering can definitely alter mixes.
Where necessary a ME could use eq, stereo imaging tools, limiting, compression; Pretty much any of the tools you use.

I did prefer the vocal sound in my mixes, but really I'm putting that down to me just becoming accustomed to how they sounded before, or having a less than adequate environment.
The sibilance was pretty strong and like I say, I think there was an element of compromise involved.
To sort out the sibilance the vocal sound maybe had to suffer a little. It's a balancing act, I guess.

Can an ME make a mix sound, well, worse ? To flip the question, is there a danger that a mixer could get a little slack, thinking that "mastering can fix that " ?

Yes, both are possible.
Worse to you might not be worse to the ME. It could be a difference of opinion but if that ME has reputation it's probably fair to 'blame' your own listening environment or judgement before you blame him.

I suppose the danger of mixing slack exists.
We've all heard bad tracking where people thought they could fix it at the mixing stage;
I've no doubt that some people make excuses during mixing in the hope that the ME can fix it.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Would it be louder than an unmastered mix that peaks at 0 dB ?

It's the RMS level that determines much of the loudness of the audio, so there is often plenty of room to make something sound louder by limiting the peaks down and bringing the RMS up. Whether or not that sounds good is a matter of debate.

In theory then, does this imply that mastering can alter mixes ?

Technically you can't alter the mix, but you can emphasize of de-emphasize aspects. For example, if one instrument dominates a particular frequency range then adjusting that range with eq will seem to alter the mix. While you may be hearing that instrument's level as compared to something in another frequency range, within the range that was altered the balance did not change. There's a difference between the subjective and objective that can be exploited.

Can an ME make a mix sound, well, worse ?

Absolutely.

To flip the question, is there a danger that a mixer could get a little slack, thinking that "mastering can fix that " ?

Yes, for the same reason that you can fall into the "fix it in the mix" habit during tracking. If you mix it to your absolute best ability then hopefully there will be little for the ME to do but compensate for imperfections in your monitoring setup, even out differences between songs and get the loudness you think is right.

(Looks like he finished his reply while I was still typing.)

(3000th post!)

 

[Steenamaroo]

LOL. That's pretty funny.

 

[Massive Master]

Nowadays, a master will be LOUDER. Although lots of people will tell you there's other purposes behind mastering.

A deaf monkey with a limiter can do "loud" -- Translation, flow, "repair" (all too often unfortunately), the creation of the master itself... 'Nother story.

 

[Steenamaroo]

(3000th post!)

Congrats. What a great post to do it with.

 

[miroslav]

If you hold it up to the light the right way...the mastered version has a certian shine to it.....

 

[c7sus]

I've been using deaf monkeys throughout my entire recording chain.

 

[mjbphotos]

Anyone got a link for that Deaf Monkey plug-in?

Definitely could tell the difference with my first CD's mastering. Brighter (without being too trebley), louder as well as a more 'full' sound.
I've also heard work that was just TOO bright in my opinion.

 

[cobaltaudio]

The best mastering engineer I met described the mastering process simply as "a objective pair of professional and experienced ears"

There's a lot more to mastering than just making stuff loud - although a lot of people are setting themselves up as 'mastering engineers' and, as has been pointed out, just make stuff louder.
A really good mastering engineer will make your mixes sound better, not just louder.

 

[Steenamaroo]

Anyone got a link for that Deaf Monkey plug-in?

Waves had an offer on one a while back but it just doesn't compare with the analog deaf monkey.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Anyone got a link for that Deaf Monkey plug-in?

Deaf Monkey Mastering System

 

[gigantic master]

A deaf monkey with a limiter can do "loud" -- Translation, flow, "repair" (all too often unfortunately), the creation of the master itself... 'Nother story.

Got a great deal on Vintage King...