L-20 master wave volume low in Cubase

J

jaygl71

New member
Hey all, long time lurker, first time poster here! I recently bought the zoom live track l-20 and have encountered an issue. I've been tracking and ensuring levels are good , no clipping but still hot, and setting faders to unity gain. When I mix down on the l20 to the master 2 track the volume is fine when I play it back on the zoom.
I've then been taking the SD card from the zoom and loading the master way file into cubase on my laptop. When I open the file in cubase the waveform looks very small and the volume is very low. It seems like it's half the volume of the same wav file when I play it on the zoom. I'm matching the settings in cubase to that of the zoom, 44.1 k, 24 bit. Am I missing something?
The zoom has two different levels indicators...one on either side of the master fader. I've been setting the level to unity based on the left side level indicator...I'm guessing one side is for dbu and the other for dbfs?
Can't find it in the manual, so I'm hoping for some help from any of the gurus here.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
 
I should mention that I've used zoom R8, r16, R20 and h1n in the same way... I'm currently using the h1n to record band rehearsals then bringing them back into cubase loading them from the zooms sd card, and experiencing no loss in volume.
 
I have the L12.
Have you tried it as an interface into your DAW?
I'm curious if that is a normal volume experience.
 
Actually - my Zoom H6 does this too. If I adjust the levels so it's near, but not at the top on peaks, then in Cubase, Audition and Premiere, I usually normalise it up, quite a bit. When I get a chance I'll record a tone and try it for certain.
 
Thanks for your responses . I will try it as interface today. I also plan on importing the individual tracks to cubase rather than a 2 track master to see if the volume drops. I did normalize the tracks ( in cubase)and the volume was still so low that I had to run it through the cubase gain plugin just to get the volume up to an acceptable level. I was demoing an idea for my band, and did an acoustic /vocal take on my h1n and imported it from the SD... No problem there, nice and loud with a big waveform showing. The l20 version( same idea demo'd but with keys, guitars, drumtrack) very small waveform, huge volume loss!?!?
 
So I ended up loading all the individual wave file tracks into cubase... Full size waveform and no loss in volume. Obviously something is happening during mixdown on the zoom. If anyone knows which level indicator is which ( there's a scale on the left and on the right of the master fader on the zoom l20)
The one on the left has unity right near the center however the scale on the right has unity all the way at the top.... Anyone know which is DBU and which is dbfs? Can't find it anywhere in the manual.
Thanks again in advance for any help
 
I was setting the fader to unity based on the left side scale during mixdown, however when I tried to go by the right hand scale and push the fader all the way up the meters started clipping...
 
A trick I use in cubas for this is not a gain plugin - but just the vst compressor - turn it on, don't adjust it so it's not compressing and use the make up gain knob, once you enable it.
 
I thought the LED indicators on the Master fader was left and right channels, like you get for 17/18 and 19/20. Is it possible you have some/many of your channels panned far to the right thus increasing the final right channel volume to be higher?
 
AlanK said:
I thought the LED indicators on the Master fader was left and right channels, like you get for 17/18 and 19/20. Is it possible you have some/many of your channels panned far to the right thus increasing the final right channel volume to be higher?
Click to expand...
The led indicators are for left and right channels but there are two different meter scales printed on either side of the LEDs. Unity is halfway on the left scale, at the very top on the right. Only the guitars were panned slightly left and right everything else centerd...When I mixed down and recorded the master track, the LEDs are hitting right at unity according to the left side values., but the wave file volume of the finished track is super low. It's fine played back on the zoom, but same file super quiet in cubase.
 
rob aylestone said:
A trick I use in cubas for this is not a gain plugin - but just the vst compressor - turn it on, don't adjust it so it's not compressing and use the make up gain knob, once you enable it.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the tip. Normally with my other zoom recorders, the file from the SD card is loud and the waveform big when I take it into cubase...I must be missing something regarding the mixdown to stereo master on the zoom...
 
Anyone else notice a volume drop when mixing down to the master track on the L-20? Still haven't figured it out...
 
Also is it.ok for the meters to hit yellow when tracking or mixing down? Thanks in advance for any input.
 
Yellow, absolutely and I've read that even in the digital world, the odd red bar can be ok (definitely was fine with analog.. some will say in the digital realm clipping into the red will distort etc, but I've heard experts say going into the red can be ok especially for rock and heavy metal recordings).. I tend to let my peaks hit the yellow and all seems well.. am not an expert however but that's what I've learned.
 
There's a really simple way to determine what the maximum level can be relative to your meters. Do a mix with an occasional red blip, then put that file into Audacity and see what level you have for the highest peak. Unless it flat tops at 0dBFS, then you're fine. Once you start exceeding 0, you are getting into distortion, and if the track is still not "loud enough", you need to look at limiting or compression in your mix so that you can raise the overall volume without exceeding 0dBFS. Even a few flat topped peaks might not be audible.

I had a situation where I got some seriously overdriven peaks which were very audible. It was done live with an R24, so no option to redo things. The peaks exhibit themselves dramatically when you see the waveform itself. It looked like this:

overdriven.jpg

Each peak sounded like a crackle and was obvious. Ultimately, I was able to redraw a few peaks in Audacity to remove the deep spike, and the result was a perfectly usable file. Obviously that is only viable if there are only a few crackles. If you have a few thousand such peaks, it would take forever to "fix". However, when the recording started, you could see the strongly overdriven signal on the level meters, which cued me in to lower the input level.

The alternative is to mix the track at whatever level make you feel comfortable, and then use something like Audacity to raise the final level to something like -1dBFS for the largest peak. It takes about 30 seconds to load the file and do the adjustment.
 
AlanK said:
Yellow, absolutely and I've read that even in the digital world, the odd red bar can be ok (definitely was fine with analog.. some will say in the digital realm clipping into the red will distort etc, but I've heard experts say going into the red can be ok especially for rock and heavy metal recordings).. I tend to let my peaks hit the yellow and all seems well.. am not an expert however but that's what I've learned.
Click to expand...
Thanks Alan. The l-20 manual sucks... doesn't detail levels very well at all...gonna try to record something with the initial tracks higher on the meters and see if the volume drops when I mix it down.
 
TalismanRich said:
There's a really simple way to determine what the maximum level can be relative to your meters. Do a mix with an occasional red blip, then put that file into Audacity and see what level you have for the highest peak. Unless it flat tops at 0dBFS, then you're fine. Once you start exceeding 0, you are getting into distortion, and if the track is still not "loud enough", you need to look at limiting or compression in your mix so that you can raise the overall volume without exceeding 0dBFS. Even a few flat topped peaks might not be audible.

I had a situation where I got some seriously overdriven peaks which were very audible. It was done live with an R24, so no option to redo things. The peaks exhibit themselves dramatically when you see the waveform itself. It looked like this:

View attachment 134342

Each peak sounded like a crackle and was obvious. Ultimately, I was able to redraw a few peaks in Audacity to remove the deep spike, and the result was a perfectly usable file. Obviously that is only viable if there are only a few crackles. If you have a few thousand such peaks, it would take forever to "fix". However, when the recording started, you could see the strongly overdriven signal on the level meters, which cued me in to lower the input level.

The alternative is to mix the track at whatever level make you feel comfortable, and then use something like Audacity to raise the final level to something like -1dBFS for the largest peak. It takes about 30 seconds to load the file and do the adjustment.
Click to expand...
Great info Rich! Thanks, I'll give it a shot and see what levels I get.
 
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