Treating mics instead of room?

[FromtheSOUTH]

So, I've been experimenting with treating our OH drum mics with foam to help tame the reflections we get from the 8' steel ceiling. I know, treating the room is the right thing to do, but in order to have anything permanent on the ceiling, it has to be flame-retardant to be up to snuff with the fire dept (the fire marshal visits us frequently) and I just cant afford to binge on foam right now. So, I was just wondering if you guys have ever treated the mics, not the room, and if so, any tips or tricks?



And don't tell me I'm stupid. I already know.

 

[RAMI]

Well, I'm not going to call you stupid.

But, just to clarify about ROOM (not mic) treatment: Foam is useless. You need to use the proper materials, like rigid fibreglass. Foam and room treatment shouldn't even be in the same sentence. It does nothing for low end (or even low mids), which is 99% of the problem in 99% of rooms.

 

[Lt. Bob]

So, I've been experimenting with treating our OH drum mics with foam to help tame the reflections we get from the 8' steel ceiling. I know, treating the room is the right thing to do, but in order to have anything permanent on the ceiling, it has to be flame-retardant to be up to snuff with the fire dept (the fire marshal visits us frequently) and I just cant afford to binge on foam right now. So, I was just wondering if you guys have ever treated the mics, not the room, and if so, any tips or tricks?



And don't tell me I'm stupid. I already know.

they're gonna say that foam doesn't do squat using it that way.
Any reflections in the room are still gonna get to the mic 'cause foam doesn't really absorb much.

I have personally never bothered to treat any of my rooms but their 4 walls are always full of shelves of records which are a surprisingly effective room treatment. But buying 6000 albums isn't cheap either!

I hope someone pops in with a filter that they have found to be useful but having read similar threads I'm gonna predict there isn't one.

 

[miroslav]

So, I've been experimenting with treating our OH drum mics with foam to help tame the reflections we get from the 8' steel ceiling. I know, treating the room is the right thing to do, but in order to have anything permanent on the ceiling, it has to be flame-retardant to be up to snuff with the fire dept (the fire marshal visits us frequently) and I just cant afford to binge on foam right now. So, I was just wondering if you guys have ever treated the mics, not the room, and if so, any tips or tricks?



And don't tell me I'm stupid. I already know.

How exactly are you treating the mics...?

Like RAMI said....foam won't give you broadband treatment, so if you have all kinds of sound issue, the foam will only deal with the high-end frequencies, but not the others.
Drums have wide frequencies....so the low-end rumble will still get into the mics, but say, if you are getting a lot of cymbal splash reflecting back, the foam will take that out.

Foam alone helps with only a small area...so in the end, you need trapping that covers the rest. broadband traps will cover almost all of the frequency spectrum, which makes foam rather pointless.
That said....if you have enough treatment that your room sounds really good....but maybe you have one spot where you are just getting that bright flutter echo...putting up a couple of pieces of good quality acoustic foam isn't an absolute no-no.
You just don't want to treat your entire room with nothing but foam....that will only make the room sound dead by taking out the brighter early reflections, but it will not do a damn thing for the low end, and that's where the real problems are for most home studios.

 

[RAMI]

....and now that I've had a few minutes to think about "mic treatment", it doesn't make sense to me anyway. Even if you put OC 703 around your mic somehow, how does that get rid of the reflections that are being created in an-treated room? It doesn't. The mic pics up whatever is going on in the room. Putting material around the mic isn't going to tell the mic "OK, only pick up the good sound and forget about all the reflections".

 

[FromtheSOUTH]

How exactly are you treating the mics...?

Take a 12"X12"x1" piece of foam, put a slit in the middle to slip the XLR through, and voila! I accomplished next to nothing. I forgot to mention the fact that I noticed no change in the recordings.

....and now that I've had a few minutes to think about "mic treatment", it doesn't make sense to me anyway. Even if you put OC 703 around your mic somehow, how does that get rid of the reflections that are being created in an-treated room? It doesn't. The mic pics up whatever is going on in the room. Putting material around the mic isn't going to tell the mic "OK, only pick up the good sound and forget about all the reflections".

makes a lot of sense.

So, part 2. Ideas on how to quiet down the cymbals a little bit? should I just tell my drummer to hit his cymbals softer, do I REALLY, REALLY need to look into treating the room, or could it just be the frequency response of the mics? The OHs seem to always be lacking in the kick, snare and tom department.

 

[RAMI]

Take a 12"X12"x1" piece of foam, put a slit in the middle to slip the XLR through, and voila! I accomplished next to nothing. I forgot to mention the fact that I noticed no change in the recordings.

Well, trust your ears.

So, part 2. Ideas on how to quiet down the cymbals a little bit? should I just tell my drummer to hit his cymbals softer, do I REALLY, REALLY need to look into treating the room, or could it just be the frequency response of the mics? The OHs seem to always be lacking in the kick, snare and tom department.

I personally believe that room treatment is absolutely necessary for mixing. For tracking, it depends on the room. If you can get a well recorded drum sound, for example, in a big empty garage, then go for it.

As far as the overheads not picking up the kik drum, that's pretty common. But if it's picking up too much cymbals and not enough snare/toms, then it could be a number of things. Drummer's technique, mic placement, mic choice, etc....My guess in this case is the drummer likes to bash his cymbals and isn't agressive enough on his snare/toms. But that's just a guess.

 

[FromtheSOUTH]

As far as the overheads not picking up the kik drum, that's pretty common. But if it's picking up too much cymbals and not enough snare/toms, then it could be a number of things. Drummer's technique, mic placement, mic choice, etc....My guess in this case is the drummer likes to bash his cymbals and isn't agressive enough on his snare/toms. But that's just a guess.

Pretty good guess, I'm constantly telling him to hit his drums harder, and he just looks at me like I'm being critical of his 'technique'. How do y'all work with musicians on a daily basis? We're the worst!!

But, I do think some of the problem is the room. Is there a go-to material and/or technique for taming cymbal reflections? I know the rest of the room will need to be treated too, but the cymbals are the only thing that needs to get taken care of asap.

 

[Armistice]

I hate musicians....

 

[miroslav]

Where do you have OH mics relative to the cymbals....?

 

[ashcat_lt]

Reflections from the ceiling can make the cymbals sound like crap, but if they're just too loud that's another issue. Move the mics. Try "underheads" pointed more at the toms ubderneath the cymbals. Maybe even try them on the floor.

One tip I've heard, but never tried, is to move the cymbals themselves an inch or two away from the drummer himself. I personally am not sure about asking a musician to make major changes to their instrument or style just for recording purposes. OTOH - I probably would ask a guitarists to get his instrument intonated if it was causing noticeable problems. Drummers, though, are known to be fickle and really enjoy hitting things. Messing with the kit could end in violence. I've heard that it can work, though.

 

[miroslav]

Reflections from the ceiling can make the cymbals sound like crap, but if they're just too loud that's another issue. Move the mics. Try "underheads" pointed more at the toms ubderneath the cymbals. Maybe even try them on the floor.

One tip I've heard, but never tried, is to move the cymbals themselves an inch or two away from the drummer himself. I personally am not sure about asking a musician to make major changes to their instrument or style just for recording purposes.

I went from having a bunch of cymbals out on the kit for the drummer to play....to just have two main crash cymbals at each side of the kit. The drummer wasn't crazy about them being off to the sides, and he was use to having a couple more out in front...but he adjusted to it for the sake of the recording and most good drummers would. They are also down low, rather than way up high above the drums.

I just hated having crashes all over the middle of my stereo image, often masking other, more important elements. Off to the sides, they work nice. I also spent a few $$$ trying out a lot of crash cymbals and then settling on 3-4 out the bunch, and then selling off the rest. I went with some Zildjian K and A cymbals...mostly dark-n-thin, so that they didn't explode too much and had a fast tail.
AFA my OH mics...I use an M/S setup, and it's placed only about 4' up over the drummer's knee, roughly between the Kick/Snare dividing line. This works well in picking up the drums, and just the right amount of crash cymbals, which are off to the sides and not directly under the O/H mics.

 

[FromtheSOUTH]

Right now they're in the 'normal' spot. Equal distances from the snare and about halfway between the top of the cymbals and the ceiling.

 

[FromtheSOUTH]

Reflections from the ceiling can make the cymbals sound like crap, but if they're just too loud that's another issue. Move the mics. Try "underheads" pointed more at the toms ubderneath the cymbals. Maybe even try them on the floor.

One tip I've heard, but never tried, is to move the cymbals themselves an inch or two away from the drummer himself. I personally am not sure about asking a musician to make major changes to their instrument or style just for recording purposes. OTOH - I probably would ask a guitarists to get his instrument intonated if it was causing noticeable problems. Drummers, though, are known to be fickle and really enjoy hitting things. Messing with the kit could end in violence. I've heard that it can work, though.

Cool, ill definitely try both of those.

 

[mixsit]

Q 1 -Why do we say 'foam is usless for room treatment?

I understand per unit of treatment -it is expensive(!) but..

And since you can't 'fix the ceiling, how about the same 'low ceiling hard reflection treatment typically used- ie 'clouds of fiberglass or rockwool, but in this case make them temporary mounted?

 

[snow lizard]

Right now they're in the 'normal' spot. Equal distances from the snare and about halfway between the top of the cymbals and the ceiling.

The job of the overheads is to pick up the bulk aggregate sound of the entire kit. What I usually like to do is not put those mics over the drum kit. You can play around with putting a couple of mics in front, or maybe one mic a few feet in front of the rack tom and another off the side of the floor tom. For one thing it will pick up less attack from the drum heads but a lot more of the shell tones. Cymbals radiate sound up and down so it should do a lot to tame that as well. Doesn't seem to have much effect on the hihat. The best way to turn that one down in the mix is get the drummer to not hit it so hard.

Might be worth a try. In any case moving the mics around is going to have a big effect on what gets recorded.

 

[Greg_L]

And since you can't 'fix the ceiling, how about the same 'low ceiling hard reflection treatment typically used- ie 'clouds of fiberglass or rockwool, but in this case make them temporary mounted?

That's what I do. I have clouds hanging from my ceiling. It helps.

 

[Mo Facta]

How do you stop them from raining? Does it get muggy?

HAAA! HA ha,,.....ahem.

Cheers

 

[Greg_L]

How do you stop them from raining? Does it get muggy?

HAAA! HA ha,,.....ahem.

Cheers

I just glare at them.

 

[mjbphotos]

You guys may not remember this guy's situation from his original posting - a corrrugated steel ceiling. Probably noisy as hell when it rains, too!
Foam over the drum set area WILL help the splash - extra high end -reflecting off the ceiling. Acoustic foam is heavy, though, and with fire marshall issues, he'll have to come up with a temporary way to hold it up there - possibly a couple of 4'x8' sheets of plywood on a 2"x4" support system, with the foam attached to the plywood.
We had the same issue in our practice space - a single-car garage with sheetrock walls and ceiling - when we went to record (instruments only) our practices, the sound of the drums was reflecting off the ceiling and way too loud in the mix, no matter what we did. We already had a plexi barrier in place around the drums, and ended up mounting a 6 ft square piece of 2" acoustic foam on the ceiling, and draping moving blankets over the plexi, too. You can listen to the results on our webpage: Instant Karma - A Tribute To The Beatles - Home
Perfect? No. Good enough to get a 'live sound' recording? Yes. Recorded on a little Tascam $49 recorder placed mid-room, vocals tracked later.