should I be recording optimizing for average quality computer speakers ?

[diannaZ]

I just realized something.
most of the publishing of my music will be on youtube or other video hosting sites.
that means that people will hear my music , for the first time, on their crappy computer speakers.
not headphones (mostly).
how did I come to that conclusion ? I thought of how I hear/get to know a new band/singer etc. for the first time: youtube.com (usually embedded on facebook when a friend share it)
same goes to everyone I asked.

later on, if things go well, they will listen to my music on their iPad, iPhone or whatever mobile device and than they will mostly use headphones, and one day maybe they will play my music on radio...
ok but for the first time (which is the most important one) will be on youtube.

why is this important ? because on the those crappy speakers (or in most cases their laptop speakers which have no BASS AT ALL!) all my friends (and me) have - everything sounds completely different.
you can barely hear the bass, you're not listing to it very loud so a lot of things are get missed, the surround effect doesn't really mean anything because they only go as far as the edge of the table (most of the time) and that ain't much.
and why should I care ? because the first hear is the most important. that it was will determine if one will share it on facebook or not which is the only way my music will ever be heard.

this mean I should be aiming to what people hear on the computer speakers at mid volume.
am I talking crazy ?

 

[gecko zzed]

The best way of optimizing your sound for average quality computer speakers is to aim for the best possible sound you can get with the best possible speakers you can afford.

This is because you are aiming for a moving target. "Average quality" is not a fixed specification. Computer speakers, iphones, ear buds and all the other sub-optimal systems all vary in quality and sound; they are not uniformly bad. Optimizing for these is trying to optimize for a specification that does not exist, except as an idea.

Go for the best you possibly can with what you've got, and there is a reasonable chance it will sound pretty good everywhere else.

 

[diannaZ]

The best way of optimizing your sound for average quality computer speakers is to aim for the best possible sound you can get with the best possible speakers you can afford.

This is because you are aiming for a moving target. "Average quality" is not a fixed specification. Computer speakers, iphones, ear buds and all the other sub-optimal systems all vary in quality and sound; they are not uniformly bad. Optimizing for these is trying to optimize for a specification that does not exist, except as an idea.

Go for the best you possibly can with what you've got, and there is a reasonable chance it will sound pretty good everywhere else.

I think I have to take into account that bass in nearly invisible when you play stuff on youtube

 

[Steenamaroo]

I think I have to take into account that bass in nearly invisible when you play stuff on youtube

I'm not sure that this is true.
It may well be if you're watching at 240/360, but for the HD quality I think they use 192k AAC.
There shouldn't be any noticeable bass loss.

The best thing to do is to get your mixes as close to perfect as possible on a system that is as close to perfect as possible in an environment that is as close to perfect as possible.
I think of this as the perfect middle ground.

If system A boosts the bass, well, you weren't bass heavy to start with so it won't be the end of the world.
If system B cuts bass a little, you weren't bass shy to start with so.................same.

Every playback system will be different, but a well mixed and mastered record will translate like any other.

Good neutral monitoring and a good neutral room combined with frequency referencing of commercial material is the key.
Mastering also takes care of a lot of this, but you still want to be on the right track before your record gets that far.

 

[gecko zzed]

I think I have to take into account that bass in nearly invisible when you play stuff on youtube

It's possible that on some systems the bass will be nearly invisible.

So, what are you going to do? Mix the bass out because it can't be heard? Or give it more prominence in the mix in an attempt to compensate?

In either case, what happens when the track gets played on a reasonable system? You then get either too little or too much bass. Either way, you ruin your track.

 

[Steenamaroo]

It's possible that on some systems the bass will be nearly invisible.

Oh yeah, of course.
I'm pretty sure it's there though.

Gekko's 100% right here.
What's your monitoring chain and environment like?

 

[diannaZ]

It's possible that on some systems the bass will be nearly invisible.

So, what are you going to do? Mix the bass out because it can't be heard? Or give it more prominence in the mix in an attempt to compensate?

In either case, what happens when the track gets played on a reasonable system? You then get either too little or too much bass. Either way, you ruin your track.

mix it out basically.
or in other words: change the track so that it will sound good even if the bass is nearly gone, like it will on laptops or cheap speakers, by making the bass less of an important part of the track.

 

[diannaZ]

I'm not sure that this is true.
It may well be if you're watching at 240/360, but for the HD quality I think they use 192k AAC.
There shouldn't be any noticeable bass loss.

I wasn't referring to what youtube does to the sound but what the hardware that people usually use to listen to music on youtube does to the sound, (using the speakers of their laptop or cheap speakers on their desktop) that makes the bass nearly disappear

 

[gecko zzed]

mix it out basically.
or in other words: change the track so that it will sound good even if the bass is nearly gone, like it will on laptops or cheap speakers, by making the bass less of an important part of the track.

You can try that. It might work. But generally, bass is used in a track because it has a role to play in the sonic landscape. If it doesn't have that role, then why have it in the first place? Why not just remove bass instruments from the mix (e.g. bass guitar, kick drums and so on), i.e. just not record them?

I'm not convinced that it is ever a good idea to pander to the lowest common denominator.

 

[Steenamaroo]

mix it out basically.
or in other words: change the track so that it will sound good even if the bass is nearly gone, like it will on laptops or cheap speakers, by making the bass less of an important part of the track.

It's your call, but unless you don't have adequate monitoring, I wouldn't bother.
What happens when someone listens on headphones or even a reasonable hifi.
Your mix sounds weak.

 

[gecko zzed]

Here's another way of looking at it.

It is true that some systems don't reproduce bass very well. It's also true that many systems are deficient in other areas of the audio spectrum. The consequence is that we can't hear those particular frequencies very well (if at all).

It is also true that some people are colour blind and have difficulty perceiving differences between certain combinations of colours. That being the case, does a landscape painter alter the colours he or she uses in painting that landscape to allow for some people being colour blind? An artist who did allow for this might paint an autumn landscape all in green (or red) to allow for people who have red-green blindness.

 

[grimtraveller]

diannaZ,
You are making the cardinal mistake of assuming that everyone and their systems are just like you and yours. I've heard plenty of stuff on YouTube on computer speakers with adequate bass. I've heard plenty of stuff on ipod buds where you can hear the bass.
Also, your point is illogical for this reason. If you are saying that there's no point in mixing in the bass because the systems you and your friends have don't reproduce it well, therefore you'll mix it out, that makes no sense. Because what difference does it make ? If a few people won't hear the bass when it's part of the mix, you might as well have it there. Those with bass shitty systems still won't hear it........but those with decent systems will. You lose nothing.

 

[diannaZ]

diannaZ,
You are making the cardinal mistake of assuming that everyone and their systems are just like you and yours. I've heard plenty of stuff on YouTube on computer speakers with adequate bass. I've heard plenty of stuff on ipod buds where you can hear the bass.
Also, your point is illogical for this reason. If you are saying that there's no point in mixing in the bass because the systems you and your friends have don't reproduce it well, therefore you'll mix it out, that makes no sense. Because what difference does it make ? If a few people won't hear the bass when it's part of the mix, you might as well have it there. Those with bass shitty systems still won't hear it........but those with decent systems will. You lose nothing.

my logic is: do not make the bass the most important part of the song as long as you are trying to make a song internetly viral.
because most do not the speakers to actually hear that bass at the first time which is when they decide if to share it or not. (hence: make it viral)

here is the story:
I recorded a song with a singer which is also a bass guitar player.
the song has virtuosic changing bass guitar riffs throughout the entire track and a great bass guitar solo. (he is only 16 but really talented)
everything else is kinda standard. (drums, vocals, electric guitar...)
after recording we uploaded it to youtube so he can show the world how skilled he is.
the next day he's on the phone crying that he nearly can't hear the bass of the track, on his laptop and neither can mom and dad or his friends on theirs...
I tried with my desktop pc and the crappy speakers I got with it - and I get the same results.
then I put on the headphones and it sounded amazing just as it sounded when we recorded it.
went back to the recording software, cranked the bass guitar all the way up, lowered all the rest a bit or more than a bit... and tried it again on speakers - it sounded weird and noisy....
I gave up...

that's the whole story and from that I concluded that that track will never get anywhere.
unless you guys have any suggestions ?

 

[Steenamaroo]

Sorry, I just don't agree with that.
I can agree with "don't make the bass the most important part of the song" to some extent, but wiping it out? I don't see the point.


There are plenty of bass orientated genres that do fine. What about all the viral dubstep videos.

Plus, a bass guitar isn't limited to bass frequencies, especially if you're dealing with an elaborate intricate bass line.

I can't throw this down as fact without hearing your track, but I feel like you should be able to mix it in such a way that the bass (instrument) can be heard.

If you wanna mix it out that's cool, but listen to some songs with intricate bass on your laptop first.
Maybe some RHCP?

 

[ashcat_lt]

So you've said that your friends share music with you and your first impression comes with this same limitation. Do you suppose the producers of that music did as you're proposing?

But, I have to disagree with the folks saying that you must use only completely neutral monitoring. There is a long and strong tradition among the pro mixers of at least checking mixes on sub-par systems. Yamaha NS10s are not the worlds most popular monitors because of their neutrality. The Avantone Mixcubes, likewise. Check your mixes on as many different systems as practical. Heck, take a minute to listen to other people's music on all those systems too. Learn how things will translate from one to the other.

Now, I'm not saying to shoot for the lowest common denominator, but there are things that can be done to get a mix to translate to smaller speakers without making them sound like crap on "real" systems. You'd be surprised at how much difference a tiny amount of parallel distortion on a bass guitar can make in fooling you into hearing it on small speakers-

 

[Steenamaroo]

But, I have to disagree with the folks saying that you must use only completely neutral monitoring.

I don't think anyone's saying that. I think a neutral and controlled environment is ideal for mixing, but of course mixes get checked on other systems.

 

[ashcat_lt]

I don't think anyone's saying that. I think a neutral and controlled environment is ideal for mixing, but of course mixes get checked on other systems.

But nobody's said that until just now. Unless I missed it, seems like everybody has been saying not to even bother, as though these subpar systems aren't worth considering in our mix decisions and - by extension - the OP is stupid to even bring it up.

The problem is not a new one. In fact, today we have more people with better playback systems than ever in history. Remember clock radios? And the headphones we used with our Walkmans weren't as good as what they're selling for iPods nowadays. The fact is that most listeners in the world really are casual consumers listening on sub optimal equipment in much less than ideal circumstances and we need to at least consider their experiences. Unless, of course, you can afford to blow off the typical consumer and market your music only to audiophile cork sniffers...

...or - like me - you know that nobody else is gonna enjoy it no matter what system they listen on.

 

[Steenamaroo]

But nobody's said that until just now.

Nobody said it

seems like everybody has been saying not to even bother,

but nobody said that either.

Anyway, you're right. It's always a good idea to reference on a range of systems.

 

[grimtraveller]

my logic is: do not make the bass the most important part of the song as long as you are trying to make a song internetly viral.
because most do not the speakers to actually hear that bass at the first time which is when they decide if to share it or not.

If the bass is the most important part of the song, then it's the most important part of the song.
I'll tell you a story.
Back in the mid 70s when I first started listening to music on a cassette recorder, I'd record pop singles from the radio and record Beatle albums both on proper stereos and from cassettes that kids at school lent me for the night, onto my cassette. From '77 right through till '81 I listened to all my music on my cassette player. It was the sort of equivalent in quality of today's things that you mentioned. It was seen as very much the poor relation. However, I built up alot of my early record collection and got really familiar with my albums on that cassette. Many of the songs had great bass content but I was largely unaware of this, regardless of whether the tapes were recorded on a good stereo from the actual albums or on the cassette itself from a shitty source like the radio or other cassettes. I was more than able to listen to the songs even though I couldn't hear the bass. In fact, when at 18 I was living on my own and had my own stereo, I was surprized at the fact that the Beatles recordings had bass guitar on them to the extent they did because unless I'd sneak a play on my Dad's music centre, I'd never hear it. But I knew tons of albums and songs really well through that crummy mono cassette with non existent bass content. Once I had my stereo, I discovered that the bass was central to so many songs. But I still loved virtually all those songs and albums and had done for years. And 35 years on, I still do. I have virtually all of them and still enjoy them. With bass.....
The point is, the original mixing engineers mixed as they heard and conceived it at the time on the monitors they had.The stuff all sounded different on my cassette, on my walkman, on my stereo and on different headphones and as I later discovered, on different stereos, different amps, different walkmans and different vehicles and different speakers.
Perfection of bass content is rarely what causes a person to dig a song, even in that most bass heavy of genres, reggae. You proved that by outlining your reasons for mixing out the bass.

 

[grimtraveller]

Unless I missed it, seems like everybody has been saying not to even bother, as though these subpar systems aren't worth considering in our mix decisions and - by extension - the OP is stupid to even bring it up.

That's harsh. No one is even implying stupidity on the OP's part. They ask a legit question. They've had legit answers. The general consensus is that mixing out the bass does not take every listener into account. Keeping it in does. It's a no brainer. If the bass is well mixed but those with shitty bass content speakers don't hear it, nothing is lost so there is little point in mixing it out.
It's a bit like a couple, one of whom doesn't care how the fridge is arranged, the other being one that likes it neat with everything in it's place. The one that doesn't care has the onus to keep the fridge neat because they personally don't care but by keeping it neat, everyone is happy.
I think it's a good thing to check mixes on different systems but in a way, remixing for specific systems after a mix sounds good may turn out to be illogical for the very simple reason that all systems are so different. But you can do a fairly neutral mix that translates to many systems.