From 424mkIII to...where? Suggestions please.

[Rodney Winsor]

I need a new recorder - 8 track digital, no computer-based suggestions please. Ease of use is my main criterion. It's almost my only criterion - sound quality is an issue but I assume that if I can make 4 track cassette work for me I should be okay with digital. EASE OF USE - that's the one! Thanks all.

 

[Armistice]

Tell us about what you actually record...

 

[Rodney Winsor]

Tell us about what you actually record...

I actually record all kinds of sounds/music. I do so one track at a time, but would like the option of recording two tracks at a time - for instance, stereo signals from digital keyboards and stereo chorus pedals.

 

[grimtraveller]

Are you up for buying used ? You could look at the Zoom MRS 8. They often pop up on ebay.
Are there any particular features you're looking for ?

 

[mjbphotos]

What's your budget? Need battery power? Built-in mics? CD-burner?

 

[Rodney Winsor]

Are you up for buying used ? You could look at the Zoom MRS 8. They often pop up on ebay.
Are there any particular features you're looking for ?

I'm certainly not totally against buying used - although have been very poorly served by used 424mkIIIs. It may sound controversial but in my relatively extensive experience over the best part of 10 years I've found the 424mkIII to utterly plagued by build-quality issues. Common amongst them are monitor/direct outs prone to intermittent faults because of the very weak way in which the RCA jacks are built into the rear of the unit - but worst of all are the tape motor issues. I won't go into it here but ime the 424 simply will not run consistently on the high speed setting, resulting in tuning/pitching problems when over-dubbing instruments. I have now owned 8 424mkIIIs - only one from new.

I digress. Coincidentally the MRS 8 is the recorder I was looking at yesterday. It does seem like a viable option for me - although I really don't need a drum machine nor even any effects. And irrc that machine has those. Still, the MRS-8 might well be the one for me.

 

[Rodney Winsor]

What's your budget? Need battery power? Built-in mics? CD-burner?

Great questions. Budget around $300 / £200 - ideally less. I don't need battery power, although of course it's a nice option to have. I certainly don't need built in mics, still less built in drum machines and effects. And as for the burner option I've currently been mixing down onto CDRW via a kind of 2 drawer domestic hi-fi burner, namely a Sony RCD w100:



This has made for acceptable results and I'm willing to carry on doing things this way if possible. Although my RCD w100 won't record more than 3 seconds of silence which can be a total f***ing PITA, and doesn't even like slow fades (seeming to not detect signal beneath a certain level, then flipping out of record mode and cutting endings off). Also, it has a mind-numbingly grim protection function called Serial Copy Management System process, which in a nutshell means it is impossible to make copies of copies. Or something. In any case, it is very exasperating - but it's what I know, and can use with ease. Which for me are big points in its favour.

As might be apparent now, I absolutely don't want to get to grips with new equipment and will avoid this at all costs if I possibly can. My ideal solution would be to buy a new 424mkIII. Yes - even though this make and model has plagued me with its faults over the years, I've still had a lot of fun using it and made some really personally satisfying recordings on it. But of course the 424 has been out of production for some time and barely any of the sellers on eBay can assure me that they have fully tested the 424s they offer for sale - in fact a significant number simply have no idea about what the unit does. Here's my stock question to sellers:

Please tell me if you have owned this item from new. Please also tell me if you have tested all the item's functions - and whether or not all the functions are in full working order. Thanks

One seller last week assured me the item was in great condition and that the graphic equaliser was all working. Oh yeah - of course. The graphic equaliser. I said, hmmm - perhaps you mean the record level meters?

All too often I find myself giving sellers a mini workshop in the 424's main functions then waiting for them to report back only to be told that they don't have a cassette/mic/brain with which to conduct the relevant tests. GRRR.

So it's with some reluctance that I'm attempting to bow out of the cassette multi-tracking world and begin forays into the digital realm.

 

[grimtraveller]

Budget around $300 / £200 - ideally less.

If you're a bargain hunter, then hunt !

I don't need battery power, although of course it's a nice option to have. I certainly don't need built in mics, still less built in drum machines and effects.

I don't use the built in bass and drums but if nothing else, the drum machine on the MRS 8 makes for a great metronome. Because some digital standalones come with the bells and whistles, you have to ignore them and use the bits you do want. I have used a Tascam 488 for 20 years and there are features on it I've never used. I don't even know how !

Although my RCD w100 won't record more than 3 seconds of silence which can be a total f***ing PITA, and doesn't even like slow fades (seeming to not detect signal beneath a certain level, then flipping out of record mode and cutting endings off). Also, it has a mind-numbingly grim protection function called Serial Copy Management System process, which in a nutshell means it is impossible to make copies of copies.

Generally, they won't do more than 4 seconds silence, but my CD recorders have always allowed for slow long fades. As for the SCMS, if you record out of the analog source, you can make copies of copies and do fades.

As might be apparent now, I absolutely don't want to get to grips with new equipment and will avoid this at all costs if I possibly can.

I understand this view. But I will say, that you may find that even two cassette 4 track portastudios of different makes will have differences. That's just the name of the game. Even two washing machines operate slightly differently.

So it's with some reluctance that I'm attempting to bow out of the cassette multi-tracking world and begin forays into the digital realm.

Don't be too harsh on sellers. Often they know how to use the unit but don't know the technical ins and outs. Or they haven't used it for years.
As one who "made the jump into lightspeed" from cassette portastudios to digital standalones, all I can say is that I loved my time on the Tascam 488, it was how I learned to record and my interest sustained all those years. But I wish I'd had my Akai DPS 12i 20 years ago. Apart from not being able to record things backwards and having the freedom to go into distortion, the Akai is a better craft in every way. My work process has only altered minimally and as for backward recording, I use the MRS 8 for that. I've also had to learn how to get get good saturated sounds without distortion.

 

[Rodney Winsor]

If you're a bargain hunter, then hunt !I don't use the built in bass and drums but if nothing else, the drum machine on the MRS 8 makes for a great metronome. Because some digital standalones come with the bells and whistles, you have to ignore them and use the bits you do want. I have used a Tascam 488 for 20 years and there are features on it I've never used. I don't even know how !

Generally, they won't do more than 4 seconds silence, but my CD recorders have always allowed for slow long fades. As for the SCMS, if you record out of the analog source, you can make copies of copies and do fades.

I understand this view. But I will say, that you may find that even two cassette 4 track portastudios of different makes will have differences. That's just the name of the game. Even two washing machines operate slightly differently.

Don't be too harsh on sellers. Often they know how to use the unit but don't know the technical ins and outs. Or they haven't used it for years.
As one who "made the jump into lightspeed" from cassette portastudios to digital standalones, all I can say is that I loved my time on the Tascam 488, it was how I learned to record and my interest sustained all those years. But I wish I'd had my Akai DPS 12i 20 years ago. Apart from not being able to record things backwards and having the freedom to go into distortion, the Akai is a better craft in every way. My work process has only altered minimally and as for backward recording, I use the MRS 8 for that. I've also had to learn how to get get good saturated sounds without distortion.

I'll have to confess that a metronome (via a drum machine) would be a great option. On a side note though, my dislike for the bells and whistles approach relates to the fact that I would much rather designers and manufacturers focused on high quality basic functions and strong build quality, rather than going down the flimsy piece of shit that will even make toast route. Look at the best equipment in this field - something like the Studer A80. What incredible machines - but how basic they are, really. To digress still further, it amazes me that neither Tascam nor Fostex et al ever made a metal-cased four track cassette recorder that recorded 4 tracks to cassette with no muss or fuss. Hmmm - I suppose there was the Tascam 234.

Anyway thanks for the help - much obliged. One last thing though - relating to sellers - my gripe is only with those who will readily and happily trumpet their machines as in "great condition," "like new," "VERY LIGHT HOME USE," etc. So - does it actually work, I ask? Uhm I don't know, comes the reply. Not very helpful at best, and at worst, dishonest.

 

[Rodney Winsor]

Okay - not that anyone's bothered of course, but I just wanted to say that I've bought a 2nd hand Zoom mrs-8. And...it seems pretty cool. It's not the easiest thing in the world to use. Stuff is buried in menus. But - it's by no means impossible to get to grips with. Plus it's simple to make a quick start - and that counts for a lot. I've already recorded a simple song - written on the spot in a few minutes. This is a big test for me - if a piece of gear gets me writing, there's no higher praise really. If it's got that little bit of uh 'mojo' that brings out the ideas then I'm a fan.

And that little built in mic is actually not dire. Really - it's got a nice sweet spot and seems to capture vocals and acoustic guitar quite nicely! And - AND - it's possible to have fun with the on-board effects too. As with all such things it's the easiest thing in the world to over do them. And the distortions all sound like total pants. But the reverb is really quite flattering once you've edited some of the over bright highs out.

So yeah - it's pretty obvious to me already, just as it was obvious to all those whose advice I ignored over the years, that digital is do-able. True, true I have a long way to go yet. I have no idea how to do even some of the most obvious things on the mrs-8. And the manual is a total wanker at times. Getting memory cards under 2mb isn't exactly cheap and easy either. But I think I can blunder through and sort out what I need to know in order to make some very personally satisfying recordings.

 

[grimtraveller]

Arise, Sir Rodney !

Okay - not that anyone's bothered of course,

Au contraire Sir Rodney. It's actually really encouraging for many people, myself included, when someone feeds back and lets us know if our advice was of any use. A frequent happening here is that someone will make 5 or 6 newbie posts and then disappear into the ether.
Of course, one never really knows why but it can get a little frustrating when newcomers just vamoose. So thanks for letting us know how you're getting on.

I've bought a 2nd hand Zoom mrs-8. And...it seems pretty cool.

I feel pretty good about that, given that it was a suggestion of mine.

It's not the easiest thing in the world to use. Stuff is buried in menus. But - it's by no means impossible to get to grips with. Plus it's simple to make a quick start - and that counts for a lot.

My very first digital machine after years of portastudio recording was the MRS 1266 which is the 12 track version of the MRS 8. Although I sold it to move onto an Akai DPS 12i, it was a fantastic machine and I would've kept it if it had varispeeding. I'm a pitch wheel junkie, I'm afraid. But I also like recording backwards {it brings about superb results on guitars and backing vocals} and I spent a long time looking for a 4 track DAW that would do this, but I had no success. So I picked up a second hand MRS 8 last year as the 8, 12 and 16 all enable backward recording. I was fortunate, the owner had never used it. I don't think they could get the SD card to work {it was a mini one in an adaptor}. I couldn't either. I spent hours trying with two mini ones. But when I popped in the ordinary sized one from our camera, bingo !

Stuff is buried in menus. But - it's by no means impossible to get to grips with.

The one hassle I have with standalone DAWs is that. Menus, menus, menus. But you kind of get used to it once familiarity has become the order of the day. Certainly with my Akai, I always recorded with the manual by my side. I never do now.

So yeah - it's pretty obvious to me already, just as it was obvious to all those whose advice I ignored over the years, that digital is do-able.

I don't recall ever being anti digital, but I've always listened to my music on cassette. I just prefer it. And back in 2001 when people were saying 'get into computers', it's not that I was against them, it's just that there was no need to switch just because someone suggested it. I was perfectly happy with my Tascam 488. It had not yet become limiting. Three years later, it was.
When I first started recording on the MRS 1266 and later the Akai, I was surprized to find that my recordings still sounded like they did on the Tascam. If they ever sound harsh, it's because I've overdone it with the highs or effects.

True, true I have a long way to go yet. I have no idea how to do even some of the most obvious things on the mrs-8. And the manual is a total wanker at times.

This is the natural stage, but two years from now, the things you have little idea how to do will become like second nature.
I have to agree with you about the manual though. Admittedly, my eyesight isn't what it was prior to 2009 but the lettering is so tiny. And it's written in a way that, even after going over a sentence a dozen times, I'm at a loss as to what is meant much of the time !
Fortunately, the penny drops for me often when I least expect it so these readings of the manual are like that guy suggesting computers back in 2001, the planting of the seeds.

 

[Rodney Winsor]

My very first digital machine after years of portastudio recording was the MRS 1266 which is the 12 track version of the MRS 8. Although I sold it to move onto an Akai DPS 12i, it was a fantastic machine and I would've kept it if it had varispeeding. I'm a pitch wheel junkie, I'm afraid. But I also like recording backwards {it brings about superb results on guitars and backing vocals} and I spent a long time looking for a 4 track DAW that would do this, but I had no success. So I picked up a second hand MRS 8 last year as the 8, 12 and 16 all enable backward recording.

Hah. I didn't know that! It's a nice option to have, for sure. I never flipped the tape over *that* much w/ my 424 - but there were certainly a few times when I did, and got some interesting results. And I always planned to do more of it. So yeah - cool.

I don't recall ever being anti digital, but I've always listened to my music on cassette. I just prefer it. And back in 2001 when people were saying 'get into computers', it's not that I was against them, it's just that there was no need to switch just because someone suggested it. I was perfectly happy with my Tascam 488. It had not yet become limiting. Three years later, it was.
When I first started recording on the MRS 1266 and later the Akai, I was surprized to find that my recordings still sounded like they did on the Tascam. If they ever sound harsh, it's because I've overdone it with the highs or effects.

Yeah I'm not anti-digital, exactly. Although I probably prefer vinyl. I certainly have more of it at any rate. And I kind of have a preference for tape, in many ways. In so far as I was anti it was only at a subjective level, in the sense that I loved what I knew, and what I knew was tape. Having said that, most of my keyboards are digital - and I like those well enough.

This is the natural stage, but two years from now, the things you have little idea how to do will become like second nature.
I have to agree with you about the manual though. Admittedly, my eyesight isn't what it was prior to 2009 but the lettering is so tiny. And it's written in a way that, even after going over a sentence a dozen times, I'm at a loss as to what is meant much of the time !
Fortunately, the penny drops for me often when I least expect it so these readings of the manual are like that guy suggesting computers back in 2001, the planting of the seeds.

Yeah man. Anyway, this mrs-8 seems like a sweet machine. I am liking it a lot. And although I should've bought one years ago, I'm sort of glad that I put so many freakin hours in on 424s, 02s and 488s, etc. etc. Because I do think *if* you can make them work for you - if you can develop methods to make your stuff sound good to your own ears using multi-track cassette - well, that's a great thing to take to digital multi-tracking. Great discipline, imo.

 

[grimtraveller]

And as for the burner option I've currently been mixing down onto CDRW via a kind of 2 drawer domestic hi-fi burner, namely a Sony RCD w100:
This has made for acceptable results and I'm willing to carry on doing things this way if possible. Although my RCD w100 won't record more than 3 seconds of silence which can be a total f***ing PITA, and doesn't even like slow fades (seeming to not detect signal beneath a certain level, then flipping out of record mode and cutting endings off).

Just as a postscript, today I did two transfers of mixes straight to CD on my Phillips CD recorder and both had pretty long fades. But before the second transfer, I let the CD run for 30 seconds of silence and it recorded. I think the key is to burn in analog mode, then you can have as long a silence as you want. I think it's the digital recording that limits to 4 second silence.