Good tuner for Intonation?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Sky Blue Lou
  • Start date Start date
How about this scenario? (BTW - I just finished re-reading the sticky and the links)

If we know we have to spread the inaccuracies across the range to arrive at a reasonable "close enough" is there a formula that could be applied to intonation e.g. 2 cents+ at 1st string, 1 cent+ at 2nd, dead nuts 3 & 4...see where I'm going?


lou
 
I imagine there is but it's a pain in the ass to do that. Get a tuner with various stretch tunings (sweetners) and it'll do it for you.
A decent tuner is pretty useful, especially if you're doing the studio thing.
 
Sky Blue Lou said:
How about this scenario? (BTW - I just finished re-reading the sticky and the links)

If we know we have to spread the inaccuracies across the range to arrive at a reasonable "close enough" is there a formula that could be applied to intonation e.g. 2 cents+ at 1st string, 1 cent+ at 2nd, dead nuts 3 & 4...see where I'm going?


lou
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No there isn't. No two instruments are ever the same. Thats why you have to do set ups. 12 et is what it is. It is the best compromise available for modern musical composition and for playing acceptably in all keys and with other instruments. You can calculate how much each interval is tempered by in cents quite easily in 12 ET what you can't do is apply that to a physical model that has a number of other variables in it such as a vibrating string stopped at fixed frets and plucked.
 
Lt. Bob said:
Peterson ..... they have built in 'sweeteners' that can be useful for stretching the tuning and getting it to sound nicer all over the neck.

I have a 490ST but I'm a piano tuner.
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Sounds lovely but way beyond what I'm going to spring for. Do they make the "sweeteners" available in lower level guitar tuners?


lou
 
Last post for me in this thread cos you just ain't getting it..

Don't buy an expensive tuner to do setups. I recently visited a friends workshop and he had one out. I asked WTF? He replied it only comes out when he has customers in there because it impresses the fuck out of them. When they are gone it goes away and he does the setup..
 
This has turned quite interesting. I understand the concepts and problems and I will employ these alternate tuning methods to see if I can hear a difference but that leaves me where I started so I'll ask the question again to make sure I have the answer correct.

I am going to change string guages and lower the action on a couple of guitars. I want to check and adjust the intonation as well. Just using my cheapo tuner and fretted/harmonic 12th will be good enough. Yes?


lou
 
muttley600 said:
Last post for me in this thread cos you just ain't getting it.
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Mutt, with all due respect, just answer the last question 'cause up till now you haven't. You've left it for me to figure out like any good teacher will and I appreciate it but I want to make sure I do, in fact, get it 'cause I believe I do.


lou
 
Muttley...*understanding* has nothing to do with it...it's *hearing* the smallest harmonic differences for intonation setups that is not always easy for most people. A strobe lets them SEE those smallest differences so they can better apply a particular temperament across all the strings.
Sure...anyone can follow your guidelines and TO HIM, the setup may sound perfect...but when you are playing that guitar against OTHER instruments, in a band or in a studio, how YOUR guitar sounds to YOU is not important, it's how it sounds against all the other instruments.
If your intonation setup is made for YOUR ears, it may be fine when you play alone, but for getting it closer to a specific standard...most ears are not going to beat a strobe tuner.

Now feel free to tell everyone one more time that they don't need a strobe... :rolleyes:
 
Thanks for the education, Mutt and the input from everyone else. I'll fiddle with them fuckers 'till they sound good and with the Plexi set at 7 ain't no one gonna know better.

lou
 
To check the pitch of a note for setting intonation a cheap tuner is all that is required. It doesn't matter that it is 1/10th of a cent accurate to "a 440" it matters only that the two pitch values are the same. A cheap tuner will do that.

The cheap tuners are actually pretty accurate as the are the chips in them. Where they lack over a more expensive tuner is the speed with which they respond not the accuracy. You don't need or want to get involved in stretch tuning ..
 
Sky Blue Lou said:
Mutt, with all due respect, just answer the last question 'cause up till now you haven't. You've left it for me to figure out like any good teacher will and I appreciate it but I want to make sure I do, in fact, get it 'cause I believe I do.


lou
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What question didn't I answer? As I read it the question was what tuner do you need for setting intonation. I replied that you don't need one but any tuner that gives you a reference will do.
 
miroslav said:
Muttley...*understanding* has nothing to do with it...it's *hearing* the smallest harmonic differences for intonation setups that is not always easy for most people. A strobe lets them SEE those smallest differences so they can better apply a particular temperament across all the strings.
Sure...anyone can follow your guidelines and TO HIM, the setup may sound perfect...but when you are playing that guitar against OTHER instruments, in a band or in a studio, how YOUR guitar sounds to YOU is not important, it's how it sounds against all the other instruments.
If your intonation setup is made for YOUR ears, it may be fine when you play alone, but for getting it closer to a specific standard...most ears are not going to beat a strobe tuner.

Now feel free to tell everyone one more time that they don't need a strobe... :rolleyes:
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Understanding has everything to do with it. If you understood what and why you would understand that having a tuner that measures in 1/10th of a cent is a complete waste of time. You need a tuner that gives the same result twice.Once for the harmonic and once for the the fretted note.

Simply by saying things like "hearing the smallest harmonic differences" proves that you are not as well versed in the subject as you may think. What are they anyway? A fixed string has a fixed pitch it has zip to do with "harmonic" anything.
 
muttley600 said:
To check the pitch of a note for setting intonation a cheap tuner is all that is required. It doesn't matter that it is 1/10th of a cent accurate to "a 440" it matters only that the two pitch values are the same. A cheap tuner will do that.

The cheap tuners are actually pretty accurate as the are the chips in them. Where they lack over a more expensive tuner is the speed with which they respond not the accuracy. You don't need or want to get involved in stretch tuning ..
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Yeah...I know you are only using one pitch against another to set intonation and 440 is not needed...BUT...
1.) if you can't clearly hear the small difference in the higher harmonics (many people can't), your intonation may be "in the ballpark", but it won't be as "tight" as it can get with a strobe where you can see the smallest differences.

2.)...you are not right about all cheap tuners being accurate enough. Most have +/- 2 or 3 cent error, that's 4-6 cents total!!!
Quite a lot for intonations. So they may NOT give you the same result twice.
Plus, when you are doing high frequencies, the accuracy is even more critical, so even +/- 1 cent makes a difference.
The strobe lets you see things at 1/10th of a cent.

Your saying "ballpark" is OK. With the strobe, you can get out on, or very close to the mound... ;)
 
muttley600 said:
Simply by saying things like "hearing the smallest harmonic differences" proves that you are not as well versed in the subject as you may think. What are they anyway? A fixed string has a fixed pitch it has zip to do with "harmonic" anything.
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You know exactly what I am saying. :)
When you play your note against the harmonic...hearing the smallest differences...(the "beats")...is not always easy.

And just to be clear ...this is not about the actual, physical setup of a guitar or the building of a guitar...
...it's about tuning.
I can hear a difference between a strobe tuned guitar and one done by ear. I don't need to be a luthier to do that. ;)
 
Sky Blue Lou said:
Sounds lovely but way beyond what I'm going to spring for. Do they make the "sweeteners" available in lower level guitar tuners?


lou
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yes ..... that's why i said Peterson. I mentioned the model I have but added that I'm a piano tuner, meaning that you don't need one of those.
Unless I'm mistaken all the Petersons have them.

Muttleys exactly right, of course. From a technical standpoint everything he says is right on.
But he doesn't seem to grasp that he's an expert in this area ..... not everyone else wants to be or CAN be. For the run of the mill guitarist the sweetened tunings you can easily get with a Peterson will absolutely make your tunings better without you having to devote a significant portion of time learning and understanding a subject that simply isn't required if you use a tuner that does it for you.

Now ..... when I tune pianos do I use the tunings for different piano scales that are in my tuner?
Actually I do NOT! I do ALL my stretching by ear ..... for me it's simply easier and better. But I tuned 900 pianos a year for 30+ years so I had a lot of enforced practice.
 
muttley600 said:
What question didn't I answer? As I read it the question was what tuner do you need for setting intonation. I replied that you don't need one but any tuner that gives you a reference will do.
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Yeah, the question has slightly evoloved by the educational process. I just started following my thoughts relating to the inherent compromises. My original question was about setting intonation and we never really got there until the end - or at least not how I expected. I probably should have asked if the red/green light tuners were accurate enough for setting intonation but I wouldn't have learned as much.

Thanks again.


lou
 
Lt. Bob said:
Muttleys exactly right, of course. From a technical standpoint everything he says is right on.
But he doesn't seem to grasp that he's an expert in this area ..... not everyone else wants to be or CAN be. For the run of the mill guitarist the sweetened tunings you can easily get with a Peterson will absolutely make your tunings better without you having to devote a significant portion of time learning and understanding a subject that simply isn't required if you use a tuner that does it for you.
Click to expand...

Yes...I said early on that Muttley is right about the technical perspective...but that most people just can't HEAR it well enough, and a strobe lets them SEE it.

His view is something like:

Nope, you don't need a high-speed circular saw to cut that piece of wood. I've been using my trusty hand saw for 50 years...and that's all you need!

:D

Tools...pick the one that does the job for you easier, faster, and more accurately...or not. ;)
 
miroslav said:
Yeah...I know you are only using one pitch against another to set intonation and 440 is not needed...BUT...
1.) if you can't clearly hear the small difference in the higher harmonics (many people can't), your intonation may be "in the ballpark", but it won't be as "tight" as it can get with a strobe where you can see the smallest differences.

2.)...you are not right about all cheap tuners being accurate enough. Most have +/- 2 or 3 cent error, that's 4-6 cents total!!!
Quite a lot for intonations. So they may NOT give you the same result twice.
Plus, when you are doing high frequencies, the accuracy is even more critical, so even +/- 1 cent makes a difference.
The strobe lets you see things at 1/10th of a cent.

Your saying "ballpark" is OK. With the strobe, you can get out on, or very close to the mound... ;)
Click to expand...

Wrong on both counts A harmonic series and fundamental of any note equates to a single pitch it has fuck all to do with the upper partials or harmonic series. They are what they are.

Cheap tuners do not vary each time you switch them on. If it gives you "A 440" one day it will give "A440" the next day. The chip in them is as accurate as a strobe what isn't as accurate is the calibration between units. Thats why they quote a margin of error. A single unit will ALWAYS give you the same result for the same pitch. There is nothing "ball park" about it.
 
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