Where does clipping take place (for sherlocks holmses:))?

[lockesilver]

Right, so I have case to solve for all the savvy audio-detectives here (whom I thank for useful advice as far).

The crime scene:

Mic (Rode NT1-a) -> Preamp (tube behringer MIC200) -> Audio interface (Cakewalk UA-1g) -> SONAR on a PC (via USB)

This is not exactly quality equipment (not even close to semi-pro, I guess) but it's not all-for-5$ either.
Basically there is clipping if the person in front of the mic speaks/sings too loud (and not e.g. screaming to the mic or anything, just speaking loud is enough).

The question is, where in the chain the ugly cracks occur (i.e. what to throw into the recycle bin first when I have the cash to upgrade).

The crime circumstances:

The preamp has two knobs, basically. OUTPUT and GAIN.

The audio interface has only one relevant knob and that is INPUT LEVEL.

I think the functions are self explanatory (or I have misunderstood them).

Here's what happens:
The only way to record anything without clipping is to set GAIN to zero, OUTPUT to just a little bit above zero (like turn the knob by 1 milimetre) and then set the INPUT LEVEL on the interface awfully loud.

Why? why my preamp has two shiny large knobs if all they do is being virtually switched off all the time. And why my interface has an even larger knob if it has to be always set almost to maximum? Where is the culprit?

In my dreams it was like, I would create masterpieces by gently pushing all the switches and buttons around on the fly and the quality would always be perfect. So?

No, the last one was a joke, but seriously, guys, what am I doing wrong?

 

[ocnor]

Basically there is clipping if the person in front of the mic speaks/sings too loud (and not e.g. screaming to the mic or anything, just speaking loud is enough).

Either your preamp input gain is set too high or the person is too close to the mic. [or maybe both]

 

[Massive Master]

Just try a different preamp.

(seriously)

 

[LDS]

Sounds like an impedance mismatch.

 

[mshilarious]

Sounds like an impedance mismatch.

No it doesn't, that would cause the opposite problem.

OP, why do you have the interface's input gain set for "awfully loud"? Proper gain staging is to take the required amount of gain at the first stage as you are able, and only add gain at subsequent stages if the first stage didn't have enough gain. Thus, set the Behri output at unity (zero gain), and see if you can figure out where the same setting is on the Cakewalk interface. In other words, turn down the Cakewalk until the clipping stops.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

The only way to record anything without clipping is to set GAIN to zero, OUTPUT to just a little bit above zero (like turn the knob by 1 milimetre) and then set the INPUT LEVEL on the interface awfully loud.

You are running the preamp output, which is a +4 professional balanced line level signal, into a -10 unbalanced consumer input on the interface. Depending on the balanced signal you are hitting the input of the interface with 14 or 20dB of excess signal when the preamp is set properly. Have you tried the preamp into anything else besides the interface to confirm that the clipping is at that stage? Connect it to something with +4 balanced line input. Have you tried another source into the interface, e.g. one with an appropriate signal level like a home stereo device?

What is your target tracking peak level (in dBFS)? You aren't by any chance trying to peak at 0dBFS, are you?

Why? why my preamp has two shiny large knobs if all they do is being virtually switched off all the time. And why my interface has an even larger knob if it has to be always set almost to maximum? Where is the culprit?

Turning the gain all the way down doesn't turn the function off. If that's the right amount of gain then it's the right setting. The output is simply a convenience so you can match the output level to whatever you need at the next stage.

 

[lockesilver]

Sounds like an impedance mismatch.

Uh huh. That's totally it. Could you explain a little more? That one really doesn't ring a bell (I'm still kind of stupid in these matters).

Anyway, after your answers and doing some research I'm beginning to smell what could be called "Behringer magic" in the air.

I tried so hard to avoid having any piece of their equipment in my setup but, damn, here it is. I really have no idea on how it found its way there.

Good thing I already decided to buy a mixer that would make the preamp unnecessary. Still, will a Soundcraft mixer's preamp be better than this little Behringer (you know, the latter's got a TUBE - a lot of people would die for it)?


***

Edit: Wow, some new answers since I started writing this one. This forum's a real blessing, I have already learned a lot and I'm still learning. It's late into the night here so I'll check all the parameters and things you're talking about tomorrow.

***

Also, sorry for my English if you stumble on mistakes/strange stuff/etc. as I'm not a native speaker.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Just try a different preamp.

(seriously)

I agree, and add the suggestion to ditch the interface as well. Either get an interface with preamps built in or one with balanced +4 line inputs to match any decent preamp.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Good thing I already decided to buy a mixer that would make the preamp unnecessary. Still, will a Soundcraft mixer's preamp be better than this little Behringer (you know, the latter's got a TUBE - a lot of people would die for it)?

I'll take a decent solid state preamp over a crappy voltage starved tube preamp every time. Basically, the tube in that device isn't doing anything except providing fodder for ad copy and extracting money from your pocket.

 

[mshilarious]

I agree, and add the suggestion to ditch the interface as well. Either get an interface with preamps built in or one with balanced +4 line inputs to match any decent preamp.

Oh please. Just turn down the level on the interface. If that doesn't work, turn down the output control on the Behri. Spending money is not required . . .

 

[LDS]

No it doesn't, that would cause the opposite problem.

OP, why do you have the interface's input gain set for "awfully loud"? Proper gain staging is to take the required amount of gain at the first stage as you are able, and only add gain at subsequent stages if the first stage didn't have enough gain. Thus, set the Behri output at unity (zero gain), and see if you can figure out where the same setting is on the Cakewalk interface. In other words, turn down the Cakewalk until the clipping stops.

What is the opposite of clipping?

To the OP - doesn't the unit have an input pad? What is it set at?

 

[mshilarious]

What is the opposite of clipping?

A really low level caused by excessive loading of a high output impedance amp by a low input impedance of a following stage.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Oh please. Just turn down the level on the interface. If that doesn't work, turn down the output control on the Behri. Spending money is not required . . .

Not required but could simplify the setup while sounding better. But it should be possible to make the existing gear work together.

 

[LDS]

Which input are you using on the Camewalk unit?

 

[moresound]

In my dreams it was like, I would create masterpieces by gently pushing all the switches and buttons around on the fly and the quality would always be perfect. So?

No, the last one was a joke, but seriously, guys, what am I doing wrong?

Lockesilver...Are your dreams in color or black and white?.... For this will make all the difference in the world.

 

[lockesilver]

OP, why do you have the interface's input gain set for "awfully loud"? (...) turn down the Cakewalk until the clipping stops.

Oh, I think I didn't express myself clearly. The knob is set to "awfully loud" to make for the interface set "awfully low", so in the end the recorded signal has the desired level. If I turn down anything it gets too quiet. If I turn anything on the preamp up - there's clipping.

Have you tried the preamp into anything else besides the interface to confirm that the clipping is at that stage?

Yes I tried both with other things and it seems that separately these devices work allright (the Behringer produces some background noise though, which annoys me, but volume and quality is ok).

The output is simply a convenience so you can match the output level to whatever you need at the next stage.

Basically, the tube in that device isn't doing anything except providing fodder for ad copy and extracting money from your pocket.

Good points.

Just turn down the level on the interface. If that doesn't work, turn down the output control on the Behri. Spending money is not required . . .

As I've said, no way to turn anything down.

Which input are you using on the Camewalk unit?

I use the big input labeled "Mic/Guitar" (set to Mic). The unit also has a small input called "MIC (plug-in powered)/digital in".

Depending on the balanced signal you are hitting the input of the interface with 14 or 20dB of excess signal when the preamp is set properly.

To the OP - doesn't the unit have an input pad? What is it set at?

YES. The preamp has one. And it's a 20 dB PAD, too. I didn't touch it because in the manual they wrote something to the effect that if you use a microphone then it's definitely not recommended. When I turn it on it seems to 'tame' the loudness on the input. I'll do some more testing with this on after work.

 

[LDS]

I use the big input labeled "Mic/Guitar" (set to Mic). The unit also has a small input called "MIC (plug-in powered)/digital in".

Wrong input. The Behringer is putting out a line level signal.

You need to use a line level input.

You're experiencing a severe level mismatch, due to something that's sometimes known as an impedance mismatch.

Try connecting the output of the Behringer to one of the RCA inputs on the Cakewalk unit.

 

[mshilarious]

Impedance mismatches CANNOT cause a level that is too high. Don't make me break out Ohm's Law . . .

OP, all of the images I can find for your unit are really blurry so I can't read the writing. That said, it appears to have RCA inputs, a guitar input, and a minijack mic input? Are you connecting to the RCA inputs?

 

[LDS]

Impedance mismatches CANNOT cause a level that is too high. Don't make me break out Ohm's Law . . .

Break out anything you want. The fact remains that the inputs and outputs he's using aren't matched to each other. Let's get the guy recording first, then if you want to prove how much you think you know about electronics, we can start another thread.

OP, all of the images I can find for your unit are really blurry so I can't read the writing. That said, it appears to have RCA inputs, a guitar input, and a minijack mic input? Are you connecting to the RCA inputs?

Ummmm....

I use the big input labeled "Mic/Guitar" (set to Mic). The unit also has a small input called "MIC (plug-in powered)/digital in".

 

[acidrock]

Wrong input. The Behringer is putting out a line level signal.

You need to use a line level input.


Try connecting the output of the Behringer to one of the RCA inputs on the Cakewalk unit.

This sounds like the most likely answer.