Neutral mic for vocals ?

[fireworks]

What are some neutral mics that can be used for vocals ? By neutral I mean no coloration whatsoever, a reproduction as close to original as possible.
I'm thinking about a measurement mic like this

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/ECM8000.aspx

Or maybe a small diaphragm condenser is more neutral than a large diaphragm ?
Since I like building, I'm also considering building a mic myself using an electret capsule that I understand can have a very flat response. Look at this web page for a good read:

http://sound.westhost.com/project93.htm

So, are any of those choices good for vocals ?

 

[ido1957]

Yes............

 

[Washburn100]

What are some neutral mics that can be used for vocals ? By neutral I mean no coloration whatsoever, a reproduction as close to original as possible.
I'm thinking about a measurement mic like this

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/ECM8000.aspx

Or maybe a small diaphragm condenser is more neutral than a large diaphragm ?
Since I like building, I'm also considering building a mic myself using an electret capsule that I understand can have a very flat response. Look at this web page for a good read:

http://sound.westhost.com/project93.htm

So, are any of those choices good for vocals ?

Well, it sounds like you are tying to re-invent the wheel in a way. Microphones and microphone technology has been around for many years. I guess my question is why do you want it to be so extraordinarily neutral that the thousands of mic and preamp choices you have are not good enough?

 

[Massive Master]

Some measurement mics, many other omnis - about as uncolored as you're going to get.

The question though... It's so rare that we actually want to capture "exactly what's there" -- Especially with vocals.

What's the purpose - if you don't mind me asking...

I mean, you do understand that it's probably going to sound pretty bad, right...?

 

[moresound]

A neutral microphone for vocals.....Well like Massive suggested omni microphones will have no proximity effect.
Maybe a ribbon microphone would do the trick for ya.

But maybe your confusing neutral for natural. In which case you would have to match your voice to the microphone (then a Microphone preamp) that is best suited to bring forth your desired taste.

 

[fireworks]

Guys, thanks for all the replies.

Some measurement mics, many other omnis - about as uncolored as you're going to get.

The question though... It's so rare that we actually want to capture "exactly what's there" -- Especially with vocals.

What's the purpose - if you don't mind me asking...

I mean, you do understand that it's probably going to sound pretty bad, right...?

The idea is to first have a voice "baseline", something that is not altered by a bright or dark mic or any other thousands of "colors" out there. Then, make an informed decision about what kind of mic to look for.

 

[fireworks]

A neutral microphone for vocals.....Well like Massive suggested omni microphones will have no proximity effect.
Maybe a ribbon microphone would do the trick for ya.

But maybe your confusing neutral for natural. In which case you would have to match your voice to the microphone (then a Microphone preamp) that is best suited to bring forth your desired taste.

What I am trying to avoid is not the proximity effect but the "coloration": no mic that is "bright" or "dark" or adds "volume" or "sheen" or "sparkle" etc..
I am ok with the proximity effect if it reflects the reality: for example if someone puts his ear near a singing mouth, he will hear something different than if the ear is at several feet from the mouth. If the mic captures this difference, than that's ok.

 

[fireworks]

Since I'm not fixated on measurement mics I've been also looking at other choices, like small diaphragm condenser mics, like this one:

http://www.mxlmics.com/products/Studio_mics/604/v604.html

Its response it's quite flat (not as flat as a measurement mic).

My question is: does it add coloration ? If it doesn't, maybe it has other advantages over measurement mic, so I should get one instead ?
What do you think ?

 

[timtimtim]

I share the interest of fireworks in getting a mic which is as flat as possible. My question is what are the potential DISADVANTAGES of using a measurement mic? Are they hissy? Are they no use out of doors? I'm not worried about them being "unflattering" etc. Hissy is my main concern.

 

[exhnozoaa]

I have an ECM8000 and love it. I have a really low budget so it's my only microphone and use it on everything.

Since I like building, I'm also considering building a mic myself using an electret capsule that I understand can have a very flat response.

Back in the day, my father made some microphones out of cheap omni electret capsules. They were used to mic a choir, but only live and not for recording. They apparently worked well enough.

I share the interest of fireworks in getting a mic which is as flat as possible. My question is what are the potential DISADVANTAGES of using a measurement mic? Are they hissy? Are they no use out of doors? I'm not worried about them being "unflattering" etc. Hissy is my main concern.

I usually don't notice noise (hissy-ness) unless I'm using a lot of gain (some is probably from the preamps in my MobilePre... They probably aren't exactly noise-free), or if I'm using four or five tracks recorded with it at once... Or there was this one time when I had a compressor bring out noise that was otherwise unnoticeable.

The noise problem kind of depends on the volume of whatever you're recording. For example, I recently recorded a friend's metal band. The singer pretty much yelled and screamed into the microphone from less than a foot away, so I used very little gain (turning it up a tenth of the way would clip ). There wasn't really any noise on that track.

There is more noise with quieter sources. I don't know if it's from noisy preamps, etc. or from my untreated room. This is probably obvious, but you can't record with a ceiling fan on. This may be the case with all microphones, but it's especially true with omnidirectional microphones like the ECM8000.

Recording with a measurement microphone probably won't work well outside if there is much wind. However, I think the ECM8000 is supposed to come with a little windscreen that is supposed to help to some extent in mild wind (I don't know for sure since I got mine used).

 

[Massive Master]

My question is: does it add coloration?

Everything adds coloration to some extent. An Earthworks measurement mic through a Crane Song Flamingo (or something along those lines) is probably as uncolored as you're going to get. But that's a very expensive way to get a "baseline" for comparison. Preamps add color - Sometimes lots of it (the Flamingo, for example, can add tons of flavor - but can be set to be freakishly transparent also).

A hard-boiled egg (theoretically, the most "uncolored and transparent" way to cook an egg - In the shell, indirect heat, etc.) has a certain flavor and texture that's completely different than a poached egg (cooked exactly the same way, just without the shell) or a fried egg, or scrambled -- The ingredient is exactly the same -- The way it's cooked determines everything else. Same with baking, pan-frying or flame-broiling a steak or a piece of chicken.

The "baseline" would almost universally be indirect heating (boiling). Surely the least amount of flavor, usually the dullest flavor. Just like recording vocals through a measurement mic -- It's certainly the most "pure" way of picking up the signal -- But how often are we trying to capture exactly what's there...?

 

[Harvey Gerst]

What are some neutral mics that can be used for vocals ? By neutral I mean no coloration whatsoever, a reproduction as close to original as possible.
I'm thinking about a measurement mic like this

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/ECM8000.aspx

Or maybe a small diaphragm condenser is more neutral than a large diaphragm ?
Since I like building, I'm also considering building a mic myself using an electret capsule that I understand can have a very flat response. Look at this web page for a good read:

http://sound.westhost.com/project93.htm

So, are any of those choices good for vocals ?

This thread might answer some of your questions:

Mics under $100

 

[dintymoore]

KM84's have a flatter response than most:

It's one of my favorite mics, but it's far from neutral. I've never heard a neutral mic. If you did have one, whatever room and sound system you play it back through would color it.

I'd forget the whole "neutral mic" thing. It sure isn't what I look for. It doesn't exist plus it's not a musical criteria.

All mics color the sound. I just want ones that color the sound in a ways I like.

You just need to match the singer with the mic. It could be a cheap mic but it usually isn't.

 

[fireworks]

This thread might answer some of your questions:

Mics under $100

Thanks, I'll take a listen to those tracks.

 

[fireworks]

Everything adds coloration to some extent. An Earthworks measurement mic through a Crane Song Flamingo (or something along those lines) is probably as uncolored as you're going to get. But that's a very expensive way to get a "baseline" for comparison.

Since that's obviously too expensive, maybe a Behringer ECM8000 (or a DIY electret mic) through the preamps of a mini Behringer mixer could do the job of creating the baseline.

It's certainly the most "pure" way of picking up the signal -- But how often are we trying to capture exactly what's there...?

Maybe not often; maybe I'll only use the flat mic a few times until I figure out what kind of mic "color" is best for me.

 

[fireworks]

Harvey, I listened to your tracks and I can't hear any difference between any of the mics on the vocals. Is that bad ? I'll try again tomorrow, when I'll be rested.

The differences in the guitar tracks sounds are obvious even to my untrained ears. I like the SM57 the least, the two MXL have a similar sound but I can still hear the differences and the ECM8000 has yet a different sound. Between the MXLs and the ECM8000, I'm not sure which I like the best, or which one is closest to reality: if you put your ear in the same place as the mic, would hear something closer to the ECM8000 track or one of the MXL tracks ?

 

[mixsit]

I would think a flat mic (or pair) are useful as well as educational. Having never used that ECM but continue to use QTC-1's, I was surprised to see quite a lift on the thing, hell it looks like a typical presence lift, probably sound good on a vocal. (I thought the main dif would be noise and low cost 'flat elements were common.

http://www.behringerdownload.de/ECM8000/ECM8000_C_Specs.pdf

Here you go.
http://naiant.com/xmspecification.html

Turn it 90 degrees for flat', and supports the good guys.. (er, not the B.

 

[John Willett]

Many years ago I used the Sennheiser MKH 40 as a vocal mic.

It *is* a clean and neutral mic and worked perfectly for me. It made the singer sound just like she did in real life without any colouration.