ITB Mixing, how good can you get it? (CLA content)

[bkkornaker]

ok kids....heres a topic that will drive you all nutz, or be a life saving thread for newbies. Being this is a "home recording" board, many of us probably are using digital DAWS only. The question is....

"How close have you gotten to a really pro sounding radio ready mix?" with using just ITB tools and plugins?

Im sure many of use have tried so hard to get our mixes sounding like the latest Chris Lord Alge radio-ready mix,......... hot, raw, in your face, and PRO sounding. Some have done it, some have failed miserably and gave up saying they cant do it without analog/outboard gear.

For those who have done it, share some thoughts on what needs to be done to achieve such a sound in a ITB world. Any specific plugins that really pushed the mix to the next level? Any specific techniques that made you say "jesus, so thats how its done!?".

 

[DrewPeterson7]

I'm obviously no expert, but the more I do this, the more I'm starting to suspect that in a great sounding mix the mixing is almost an afterthought to just getting great sounding raw tracks. If your performances are solid and the source material is good (in tune, good tones, decent room, etc), then you'll probably end up with a pretty good finished product.

 

[Farview]

There is really nothing different about mixing ITB than OTB. As long as you keep your gain staging under control and have a listening environment that allows you to hear what you need to hear, you should be good to go.

Your basic CLA mix normally doesn't start with a 16 year old recording his out of tune Daisy Rock guitar through a Crate practice amp. It generally starts with good players playing good equipment in decent sounding rooms, captured with decent mics and recording techniques. I'm not trying to take anything away from CLA, but you must realize that he doesn't generally get crappy sounding tracks to mix. He takes things that sound great and just puts another coat of polish on them. If you started with the same tracks, you would have to work pretty hard to make it sound bad, you might not get the level of polish that he does, but it would probably sound better than what comes out of most basement and project studios.

All that said, UAD plugins changed everything for me. Having quality equipment to work with makes things a lot easier.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Also, I have no idea who Chris Lord Alge is.

 

[bkkornaker]

There is really nothing different about mixing ITB than OTB. As long as you keep your gain staging under control.

explain a bit more please.

 

[bkkornaker]

Also, I have no idea who Chris Lord Alge is.

hes pretty much the GO TO mixing guy for top rock artists....

his recent mix credits include .....

green day -american idot,
paramore - brand new eyes,
deftones - diamond eyes (only the single)
seether - finding beauty in negative spaces
Daughtry - leave this town
Stone temple pilots - (new 2010 album)
my chemical romance - the black parade

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Are you asking for a GREAT-sounding mix, or a PRO-sounding mix? Because the two are not necessarily the same thing. There are are a lot of great-sounding mixes, both commercial and amateur, and vice versa, there are a whole lot of "pro" commercial mixes that sound like cow pies, including some work by CLA (nobody has a perfect batting average, including him).

That said, even the best of the CLA-sounding stuff can be done entirely ITB, and can be done with minimal or even no plugs, It can also be done with a busload of different plugs. Or it can be done entirely OTB. There's no one single way to skin that cat. Nor does the mixing/mastering hardware matter in any more than a peripheral way in that regard.

It requires attention to detail in getting the tracking right, like Drew said ("right" meaning requiring as little post processing as necessary to sound like you want it), having both the analytical and musical ear to be able to listen to your tracks and know what they actually need and don't need, and knowing the gear that you DO have well enough to be able to use it to get what you need.

Putting those all together usually requires one key base ingredient; practice.

G.

 

[Bristol Posse]

Maybe you should use the Waves CLA signature series signal chain plugs if you want to sound like CLA
I'm sure it would be impossible to make a bad mix if you use those plugs

 

[bkkornaker]

what sparked my interest in this topic was i hit a brick wall last night.....heres the story....

i consider myself a novice at recording/mixing, all done at home ITB, and have been doing so for the past 7 years or so. I always "thought" my music sounded decent in the end, untill a few days ago i told myself i wanted to step up my game a bit, and really try for a hard hitting CLA style mix.

i took a recent mix/song i recorded, and decided to re-mix it from scratch trying to achieve such a sound. I figured i got some decent tools to work with, very similar to CLA's outboard gear.

Waves SSL plugs (EQ/comps)
1176 style compressor plugin
distressor plugin
tape simulation plugin
various 'other' modeled compressor plugins
random other plugins for delays, verbs, chorus, doubling effects, etc

So i sat down, and on my song, i imported a few CLA songs on a few other tracks so i can reference back to them and adjust/mix mine accordingly. And kinda just went from there......periodically checking my mix versus his...

after almost an entire day of re-mixing my song, i was excited and thought i was close! very close! But then i exported my mix, and gave it a listen to it on other systems...

and to my surprise........it wasnt even close. it didnt have that BIG hard hitting, upfront, in your face sound.

So i thought to myself....lets try again. i went back in and re-adjusted the mix, listend on headphones, mono, nearfields....i REALLY gave it a full effort to listen hard to mimic this CLA style mix....

Exported the re-mix.....

and again to my surprise......still sounded small and not the end result i thought it would be.

 

[noisewreck]

Part of it can be that you're comparing your stuff to mastered trackes, which are likely compressed and limited, especially if they are recent releases. Given that, your raw mix is likely to sound much quieter compared to commercial releases, which may give the impression that they sound small.

 

[Farview]

explain a bit more please.

That whole "record as loud as you can without clipping" thing really screws you. The signal levels all the way through the process are important. That is where things tend to come off the rails.

With an analog board and/or outboard effects, you have to give them the correct signal level. For example, if you recorded a distorted guitar in the computer at just under clipping and ran that into a mixer, the VU meters on the mixer would be pegged because the signal level would be somewhere around +14db VU. Even if the mixer could handle that without distorting, it still wouldn't sound as good or as open as it would if you had the level around 0dbVU. 0dbVU on an analog piece of equipment equals about -18dbFS on digital equipment.

 

[bkkornaker]

noisewrek - i dont mean it sounds 'small" in a sense of volume, i mean it sounds small in comparison as in "size, weight, overall upfrontness, depth, girth", kinda like you can really FEEL the mix and its overall size is just "BIG" sounding and everything sounds like it sits upfront in your face.

Its not the volume im concerned about. I was A/Bing my mix (did a faux master to bring up to -9RMS using Slate Digital FG-X limiter/loudness plug) to compare to the CLA finished mix.

plus CLA's mixe are so hot when hes done with it, most ME's really dont have to boost it anymore....maybe a 1db or 2 more....but most say they dont need to give it anymore volume. So CLAs mixes sound BIG and ready to go even if they didnt go to the ME yet.

farview - i dont understand why you bring up gain staging and Analog comparisons, i was asking if a CLA style mix can be done completely ITB and no analog gear involved. I understand the whole 0dbfs equals -18db analog, but if someone were to completely mix ITB with no analog gear in mind, do we really need to worry about keeping the recorded levels at -18dbfs?

 

[Farview]

farview - i dont understand why you bring up gain staging and Analog comparisons, i was asking if a CLA style mix can be done completely ITB and no analog gear involved. I understand the whole 0dbfs equals -18db analog, but if someone were to completely mix ITB with no analog gear in mind, do we really need to worry about keeping the recorded levels at -18dbfs?

YES! That's what I'm saying. Especially if you are using plugins that emulate real hardware. Those emulations are expecting signal levels that mimic the signal levels that you would feed the real unit. If you feed the emulation a signal that hits -1dbfs, it is the same as sending a real unit a signal at +15. That wouldn't sound very good for real, it doesn't sound right with the plugins.

 

[bkkornaker]

interesting.....


as from the manual of the Waves SSL chanell strip -

Master Section Controls and Indicators
On the bottom right of the SSL Channel Strip are the master gain controls and level indicator.
1. Level Indicator Levels are expressed in dBFS, although all parameters are expressed
as dBu

I record my signals so they come into the DAW and read at around -16dBfs on the DAW track. The channel Strip plugin is applied, and its input meters on that plugin are still in the green, and not pushing the plugin hot at all. I think the gain staging is good so far......All the other plugins ive used so far seem to go by dBfs, even the other modeled compressors.

 

[RAMI]

It was mentioned in this thread, but seemed to be skimmed by, if not ignored.

The most important part of getting a good mix of any kind is in the first step, which is the tracking. It's not about having the same plug-ins and effects.

Good, pro recorded tracks are recorded in good rooms using good mics with good mic choice/positioning on good players with good instruments recorded by a good tracking engineer.

 

[Bristol Posse]

interesting.....


as from the manual of the Waves SSL chanell strip -

Master Section Controls and Indicators
On the bottom right of the SSL Channel Strip are the master gain controls and level indicator.
1. Level Indicator Levels are expressed in dBFS, although all parameters are expressed
as dBu

I record my signals so they come into the DAW and read at around -16dBfs on the DAW track. The channel Strip plugin is applied, and its input meters on that plugin are still in the green, and not pushing the plugin hot at all. I think the gain staging is good so far......All the other plugins ive used so far seem to go by dBfs, even the other modeled compressors.

Yes I have those same Waves SSL plugin emulations and a couple of places in the manual it states the -18dBFS is equivalent to 0VU as far as the pugin is concerned
I'm not certain how well the distortion emulation works but, theoretically anyway, running the Strips, EQ or comps at close to 0 dBFS would be like running a desk with the signals comming in at +22 (assuming 0VU = +4dBU (I think anyway, I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong)) which would not be good. (This is why RTFM is important even for plugins or you miss that they are calibrated at a certain level and can't figure out why they sound like crap on your mixes)
If you're getting average RMS levels around -16dBFS you should be in OK shape and sometimes you might want to push the input a little harder for effect but not on every track.

If you want to get some simulated VU meters to get a better idea of your RMS levels, there are some free ones from PSP Audioware (PSP VIntage Meter) that you can set the dBFS level at whatever you want to represent 0VU (so for the waves plugs set the meters so that -18dbfs = 0VU and you can get a good idea of how your levels are). Sonalkis also makes some free digital dBFS meters/Gain plugs (Sonalkis Free G) with both RMS abd peak meteing in both stereo and mono so you can get a good idea if you are getting an input signal to the plugin that is around the correct RMS value (and trim the gain appropriately if you need to)

*******EDIT******
Also worth noting is that CLA generally mixes through a compressor and limiter on the masterbus which is almost certainly, also a contributing factor to his up front sound

 

[bkkornaker]

i dont think its the tracking thats killing me....

Drums - Steven Slate Drums (sounds already polished out of the box)
Bass- D/I
guitars - 100W tube amp head, running into a impulse response for cab simulation.



What ill have to do is post maybe a complete bone-dry mix. So we all can see what im working with.....and probably ill do another complete re-mix from scratch this weekend (another CLA mix attempt), and post that as well.

***not to take this topic astray, its not about me and my mix. i really want to know if there are any other people on this board who have gotten great ITB mixes that sound like good/pro/radio ready CLA style mixes.

 

[bkkornaker]

Yes I have those same Waves SSL plugin emulations and a couple of places in the manual it states the -18dBFS is equivalent to 0VU as far as the pugin is concerned

So what does this mean exactly? the plug in meters will read it as dBfs, but the actual plugin effects are reacting to it as 0vu scale?

So if my -16dbFS recorded signal hits the channel strip plugin, the the input meters on that plugin read it as a -16 input on its input meters(still in the green, not in the yellow or red zone on the plugin input meters)........and yet the plugin is REALLY reacting to it as if it was a +2VU signal?

this seems like it makes no sense......Am i missing something here?

 

[Bristol Posse]

So what does this mean exactly? the plug in meters will read it as dBfs, but the actual plugin effects are reacting to it as 0vu scale?

Yes that's it

So if my -16dbFS recorded signal hits the channel strip plugin, the the input meters on that plugin read it as a -16 input on its input meters(still in the green, not in the yellow or red zone on the plugin input meters)........and yet the plugin is REALLY reacting to it as if it was a +2VU signal?

Yes right again and that is wh you can get the SSL plugin input levels into the virtual red LED without clipping the digital signal (going beyond 0dBFS) because they are showing you levels on the virtual LED meter based on 0 VU not 0dBFS (numbers are in dBFS however)

this seems like it makes no sense......Am i missing something here?

So long as you are tracking at reasonable level (line levelor around -18 dBFS RMS with peaks no higher than say -6dBFS) then don't worry about the numbers too much, mix it so it sounds good and if you are using the SSL strips try not to push the input levels into the red too much. If you were mixing on a desk you would not have dBFS numbers to worry about just the LEDs and VU meters

Wouldn't it be nice if we could just use one scale like line level and forget about dBFS, espicially since on a DAW with 32 bit float architcture or higher, 0dBFS isn't really 0dBFS at all which is why you can push your mixes above 0 and not hear audible clipping until you mix the file down to a 24 bit WAV or 16 bit CD

 

[bkkornaker]

ok, so what your sayin is.....if the signal is going into the plugin at -16dbfs and the plugins meters are still reading into the "GREEN", i can push the input knob on the plugin so it eventually is in the YELLOW....and thats what i am supposed to do for optimum level?

i guess what im trying to say is....i want to drive this channel strip plugin so it starts to distort a bit (not much, some analog distortion vibe maybe).

Do i have to adjust the input trim on this plugin so the input meter is in the YELLOW/RED to act like analog distortion........or is it already distorting a little bit while its in the GREEN?

damn this is so confusing.....