Line 6 is going to turn the mic world upside down

[antichef]

I need to be able to, for example, 'bear down' a bit and bring my guitar to the front of the mix. Can't really do that very well with a modelers' compressed sound.

Wow, that's it, Lt. Bob! The "pick responsiveness" we like is really the headroom that mshilarious described, and it's the headroom that makes it so that we don't have to have a mind-meld with the sound guy, and that can be huge.

Still, in my gigging days, I pretty much had a tube screamer pushing my JCM-800 to the point where I didn't have much headroom anyway.


I like modelers for what I'm doing now. Still got the JCM-800 and I still looove it too. Too bad I still need to spend 5 digits on room mods before I can open it up at my house without going to friggin' jail.

 

[miroslav]

To be clear, I've ALWAYS said I way prefer a tube amp to a modeler. You can search my posts sometime if you're bored and you'll pretty much see me saying that to my ears a modeler flat out sucks compared to a tube amp for live work

No need to…I know you said that…I wasn’t doubting you.

I don't feel as strongly for recording and here's why.
The very thing that bothers me about modelers is that compression. On a gig I need to be able to, for example, 'bear down' a bit and bring my guitar to the front of the mix. Can't really do that very well with a modelers' compressed sound.
So you end up having to have multiple presets at varying volume levels and you're constantly tap-dancing around the presets. Pretty distracting to your playing.
But recording you tend to record separate tracks for the different guitar sounds you'll use and it's not as big a deal to reach over and change presets or nudge the volume control.

I hear what you’re saying…and I can understand why/how for some people, that works fine enough. But to point out…even in a recording environment, your still playing the guitar, and dynamics and touch-response are still part of it…don’t you agree?

What I’m saying and been saying, (though some folks don’t want to hear it, so they keep counter-arguing the issue over, over, over, over, over….) is that it’s NOT just about final tones and just how it sounds in the final mix…
...it’s also about the initial playing part, and that there is certainly a different vibe playing through a tube amp than through a pod/modeler….isn’t there?
At least there is for me...and if there is a different vibe during playing, then that WILL affect the final tones/mix...don't you think?

So looking at the whole picture…a pod/modeler is rarely going to give me something I can’t already get with a tube amp….that’s why I say they have no purpose for me, and given a choice, I would try to go with the amp 100% of the time.
Other than that…even if I could lose the homogenized, digital pedigree tone somewhere in the mix (just like you lose some of that “tubey goodness”)…I’ve yet to *play* through a pod/modeler where I couldn’t still hear some of that homogenized, digital quality under its primary tones, and where the dynamics and touch response was as good as with a tube amp.
I thought that the Line 6 Spider Valve was somehow going to camouflage it well enough with its real power tube section….but nope…I could still hear it.

I'm with ya' on the tube amp thing and I also agree that there are lots of modelers that sound better than Line 6 stuff. I pretty much rank PODs at the bottom.

Where we part ways is that I don't think it's necessary for you to jump in and tell someone that what they're doing can't possibly be any good if it's a modeler.
First, that's not true ...... secondly ......... if someone posts a thread about their new modeler or a thread about how can they get such and such a sound out of their modeler ..... it's totally off topic for you to repeatedly bash modelers and refer to your own preferences as if that has any bearing on the topic at hand.

Well…as I pointed out, I never attacked anyone specifically about their personal choices (though some attacked me about mine) and this thread wasn’t about any one person raving about their pod/modeler and me coming in to crush their joy or some such thing.
Believe me, I’ve seen many of those threads…and I just don’t bother to get into it when I see someone is very juiced about something they just bought (no matter how much I might think it sucks).

This thread started out about the new mics (which no one has yet even had a chance to try) and then it segued into the pods/molders.
I kinda thought the main part of the debate was over back on page 3 when we went off-topic, and after I agreed everyone should use what works for them…but if I’m pulled back into the topic several times, then I respond. It wasn’t about trying to bash some newbies specific choices…and you know what, I think many newbies are just flying by a lot and heading straight for the finish line when it comes to gear/recording, not to mention, there really is a strong belief by many newbs that ‘cuz its digital and inexpensive…it’s the better choice.
I think it is important for them to consider the details and hear all the pros/cons….don’t you?

 

[mshilarious]

Oh I think modelers can do all kinds of things that a tube amp can't do. For example:

out = a * in^2 + b * in^3 + c * in^4 . . .

Difficult to do with analog electronics, and certainly very difficult if you limit yourself to tubes (because you'd need an armful of them).

Beyond the stuff with harmonic distortion (a form of additive synthesis, really), it should be trivial for a modeler to implement pitch-to-MIDI (or just trigger its own internal synthesis. Very hard to do with tubes.

Or how about delay? BBD with tubes? Hope you have a REALLY big live room, with industrial-strength AC! Or sure, run a tape loop, but don't cheat, use an all-tube path tape deck . . .

 

[John Willett]

I thought the saying goes *opinions are like SM57s ....everybody has one* .

I don't have an SM57 - I don't have an SM58 either - in fact I don't have any Shure mic.

Too downmarket for me.

 

[mshilarious]

I don't have an SM57 - I don't have an SM58 either - in fact I don't have any Shure mic.

Too downmarket for me.

You owe it to yourself to get a 520DX, for the cool factor. I have that and the 55SH, this is why I am too cool to even post here. I didn't even write this post, I have assistants post for me

 

[moresound]

I don't have an SM57 - I don't have an SM58 either - in fact I don't have any Shure mic.

Too downmarket for me.

That's for shure!

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Actually, Drew...I did say that early on...like back on page 3, and you actually quoted me from this exact post:



I don't really see that you (or anyone) had to "defend modeling as a valid technology"...I was very clear that it simply didn't appeal to *me*...that I could never get past its digital pedigree.

It was more of a question of tone, man - the way you were incredibly dismissive and condescending towards any mention of a modeler. Hell, I don't even like the things, and it rubbed me the wrong way a bit too.

On the bright side, Darrin's ban seems to be over, so he's already making you look positively thoughtful, nuanced, open minded, and tolerant.

 

[miroslav]

You're welcome to view solos as some formulaic process that's about specific notes needing to go together...whatever works for you.

works for me?

You’ve been mocking me and insulting me about my music, playing and recording skills for the last 4-5 pages….boy, you sure got a lot of nerve. Dude…I listened to your SoundClick stuff….

Don’t ever say a word to me again about guitar solos….’cuz I couldn’t even find a single one in any of your stuff.
Your productions and recordings and mixes are “rough” to say the least.
And while I know we are all born with a particular sounding voice, and you can’t do much about that…straining and singing out-of-key is more about lack of practice and skill.
I do recall that type of singing style was almost de rigueur with the Alt/Grunge crowd back in the 90s (‘cuz most couldn’t really sing)…I just didn’t think people would still be trying to sing that way today.
Your style of music is your choice, but let’s be honest, it is just left-over AltFunkRock from the early 90s…so don’t think you're breaking any creative barriers with enough credibility to then turn around and mock people’s music styles on these forums (or anywhere).

All in all…whatever “fame” and “touring” chops you think you had “back in the day”…well, I’m just not hearing it in your stuff.
Had I listened to your music back on page 5…the last few pages would have been just one big chuckle for me. But it’s OK…I’m chuckling now!

Good luck with all that…whatever it is your doing with your music…you and I are done here in this thread, you got nothing on me….but if you wanna keep mocking me and insulting me…you go for it, (and that goes for your two insulting homeboyz…’cuz I’ve heard their stuff too).

Oh I think modelers can do all kinds of things that a tube amp can't do. For example:

out = a * in^2 + b * in^3 + c * in^4 . . .

Difficult to do with analog electronics, and certainly very difficult if you limit yourself to tubes….

Yes...you are right, tube amps aren't going to do all that MIDI and algorithm stuff...but isn't that what attracts so many people to tube amps...
...the beauty of their simplicity and their organic tone quality.

I never felt that technological progress was mainly about cramming as many "gee whiz" creature features into one box....though for some folks that is a big selling point, as it's an inexpensive way to get a lot of bang for your buck, but not necessarily always the best use of technology, as too often many of the packed-in features are nothing much to write home about and very often there are only a few that will stand out on their individual merit.

My opinions aside...it's safe to say that there are many players who simply prefer tube amp simplicity over crammed-in features, and the number of single channel tubes amps in current production only underscores that. It's not like just because some pod can do 128 tricks...it's always *better* because of that, ‘cuz if that were the case, everyone would be playing only through pods.

It was more of a question of tone, man - the way you were incredibly dismissive and condescending towards any mention of a modeler. Hell, I don't even like the things, and it rubbed me the wrong way a bit too.

On the bright side, Darrin's ban seems to be over, so he's already making you look positively thoughtful, nuanced, open minded, and tolerant.

I've been saying that all along...it's a question of tone...that's why I prefer tube amps
But hey, I appreciate the "props" ....but tell me, the guys that have been slinging vile personal insults for several pages...how do they look to you, Drew?
Or are you going to tell me that their responses are justified in some way and that they ARE positively thoughtful, nuanced, open minded, and tolerant???

I might have been dismissive though not really condescending (maybe incredulous) towards pods/modelers…but certainly not towards anyone on a personal level…
…at least not until they started slinging mocks and insults my way…and you know, some of them do the same thing all over these forums, day in and day out, but I guess that comes off as “cute” to everyone, and therefore tolerable.

Anyway...I got no grips with you or the rest of the guys around here...it's only the 2-3 in this thread that can't get past the 9th grade when it comes to civilized discourse.

 

[ez_willis]

i still have a soundclick page?

 

[Lt. Bob]

i still have a soundclick page?

you don't have time for this ......... you're supposed to be burning me some CD's of your awful music. The stuff that's so bad that it's the only music by any board member that I've ever requested and really want.
I want my freakin' CD's of meth-head music!



seriously, I'm gonna be looking for those before a handshake when I see you at the fest.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

But hey, I appreciate the "props" ....but tell me, the guys that have been slinging vile personal insults for several pages...how do they look to you, Drew?
Or are you going to tell me that their responses are justified in some way and that they ARE positively thoughtful, nuanced, open minded, and tolerant???

Oh, I just sort of have trained myself to look through all the insults and whatnot in ez and greg and the like's posts - it's just sort of their way of showing they care, near as I can tell.

 

[miroslav]

Oh, I just sort of have trained myself to look through all the insults and whatnot in ez and greg and the like's posts - it's just sort of their way of showing they care, near as I can tell.

Yeah...maybe you're right.

If they didn't care so much about my music...they wouldn't be so preoccupied with it!

Thanks…I’ll keep that in mind.

 

[mshilarious]

I never felt that technological progress was mainly about cramming as many "gee whiz" creature features into one box....

So I guess you don't play Mesas then

It's true, most of the guys with tube amps and mud tone seem to play Mesas . . . I think they probably are pretty good amps, but apparently they are much smarter than their owners . . .

When I build my amp, it will have two knobs: "volume" and "tone". "Tone" will be a continuously variable single-ended overdrive vs. transformer saturation control, without materially changing gain. "Volume" will be master. There is no preamp gain control--use the knob on your guitar, numbskull. And no, I'm not going to use any tubes

 

[ez_willis]

you don't have time for this ......... you're supposed to be burning me some CD's of your awful music. The stuff that's so bad that it's the only music by any board member that I've ever requested and really want.
I want my freakin' CD's of meth-head music!

got it handled already. here's a link to the BDL stuff to hold you over.

 

[Lt. Bob]

It's true, most of the guys with tube amps and mud tone seem to play Mesas . . .

I have a Mesa Blue Angel that you'd like ...... single channel, not even a master volume and reverb to die for.

And my Mark V is an awesome amp but it is kinda complicated and I think that the many players I see who are tonally challenged would have an even harder time getting something good out of it because with complexity comes very many ways of screwing up your tone.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

So I guess you don't play Mesas then

Low blow.

 

[miroslav]

So I guess you don't play Mesas then

No...but I picked up a Rivera Chubster 40 not too long ago to have as a potential gig amp, since it is dual-channel w/reverb ...
...I guess it's kinda "feature laden".

Actually...I really like the Chubster...it surprised me, I wasn't expecting it to have the good tones it does. Many two channel amps "share" some of their preamp stuff, so you don't get two distinctive channels, but the Rivera stuff is wired differently.
The treble boost and Ninja stuff is a bit too over-the-top IMO...but the basic channels both sound quite good.

 

[mshilarious]

got it handled already. here's a link to the BDL stuff to hold you over.

miroslav just got twned

Low blow.

As a wise man once said, "That thing looks like the back of my grandma's television"

 

[miroslav]

Naaaa, not really ...'cuz were talking about solo efforts here...


He's been asking some of the most rudimentary questions on the HR forums about amps, guitars and recording...so there ain't no way any of that is his solo effort...coming out of his home studio.

I already heard his solo effort.

 

[ez_willis]

Naaaa, not really ...'cuz were talking about solo efforts here...


He's been asking some of the most rudimentary questions on the HR forums about amps, guitars and recording...so there ain't no way any of that is his solo effort...coming out of his home studio.

that was the last band i was in, and that was recorded to cassette in '94-'95.

I already heard his solo effort.

first of all, you pwn yourself, stupid. secondly, you found my soundclick site that i haven't accessed in years. those are the first few songs i recorded on my own. i have a song that's almost finished. it'll be the first one i recorded with reaper. give me a week, i'm recording a friend's band this weekend.