wind instruments and microphones

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moresound

Loud Sun Studios
On close micing of a wind instrument how much should I be concerned about the moisture build up on the diaphragm of a SDC or a LDC ?



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No. I mean, ostensibly yes, but really you're never going to put it in a spot where there's enough moist air to matter unless you do something utterly insane.

Simple test: stick your hand where you want to put the mic. If you're feeling lots of warm air motion, the mic is too close, and you need to move it back---not for condensation reasons so much as for wind noise reasons. :)
 
It depends on the climate. But generally unless we're talking vocals, moisture shouldn't be that much of an issue. Most wind as in woodwind / brasswind are relatively loud instruments that the mic probably wont be that close, and maybe not even aimed directly at the mic. Not to imply that moisture wont be an issue at 95% humidity outdoors. Or enclosed spaces where moisture builds up over time.
 
Maybe it would help if you would describe WHICH wind instruments and how you're trying to mic them.... sounds like you may be doing something wrong....

(and if they're brass instruments, tell the players to use their spit valves once in a while!)

;-))
 
TimOBrien said:
Maybe it would help if you would describe WHICH wind instruments and how you're trying to mic them.... sounds like you may be doing something wrong....
(and if they're brass instruments, tell the players to use their spit valves once in a while!)
;-))
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Hey Tim.....just any wind instrument in general that has moisture ridden breath.

And it's not so much for me I usually am about a foot and a half away or off axis - It's for my thoughts when a guest engineer comes into the studio ( maybe a double wind screen) or in a live situation (usually no wind screen available) when they insist on close micing with a LDC or SDC.

So do I have to worry that much about moisture build up on the diaphragms?



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on sax I wouldn't worry about it at all ...... the air comes out everywhere and any moisture tends to collect in the bow. You should mic a sax back a foot or two to get all the sound anyway so I can't imagine it being a problem.

I think the only axes you'd have any real possibility of too much moisture would be brass. Everything that goes in comes out of the bell so I don't think it's beyond possibility that in a small brass ax like trumpet, enough could come out to not be good for a condenser mic.
They say that moisture in singers' breath can be bad for a condenser ...... it wouldn't surprise me if a trumpets' output was as moist as a singers' breath.
 
I record sax in Florida (98% humidity on a GOOD day....) and never have a problem with moisture.

If anyone's throwing that much moisture a foot-and-a-half away, they need to see a doctor!

I can see it happening more with brass (trumpet, trombone) but again any brass player using their spit valves occasionally shouldn't be a problem.


...... don't get worried about things BEFORE they happen.....
 
Just a little preventive thinking.
For you hear about the vocals and LDC with moisture problems but with a bone or a trumpet the wind / breath speed is tremendous in comparison to singing.

*don't worry about things before they happen*..... isn't that what the captain of the Titanic said?



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you are way too close

moresound said:
On close micing of a wind instrument how much should I be concerned about the moisture build up on the diaphragm of a SDC or a LDC ?

:cool:
Click to expand...

if you are concerned about that then you are way too close for a good recording andor have the wrong location for your mike

you should be off to the side near the middle, back at least a foot ( i would go 2-3 feet depending on the instrument). and that might still be too close unless you want to hear the fingers and keys moving.

why not a good stereo recording from back several feet?
 
newcomputeruser said:
if you are concerned about that then you are way too close for a good recording andor have the wrong location for your mike

you should be off to the side near the middle, back at least a foot ( i would go 2-3 feet depending on the instrument). and that might still be too close unless you want to hear the fingers and keys moving.

why not a good stereo recording from back several feet?
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Ya.... if you read the whole thread (look at #5) that's exactly what I do.
This is for the guest engineers who insists on close micing of horns.



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Avoid putting the mics directly under the spit valves and you should be okay. A lot of these things are metal and room temperature is less than body temp so most of it condensates long before exiting the horn at the bell. As long as you have it away and "above" the horn, you should be fine.

Noting how trombone 9' reach and fast movement to keep up with a keyed instrument might be flinging stuff around at the bow of the slide. About the only extreme that I could think of. Unless you've got a camcorder or something in "that" location (7th position) looking down the slide, it shouldn't be an issue. Normally > 1' and < 3' and near the exit hole (above) of said instrument. i.e. not an issue.
 
what brass

moresound said:
Ya.... if you read the whole thread (look at #5) that's exactly what I do.
This is for the guest engineers who insists on close micing of horns.
:cool:
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i consider the horns to be brass
the others are wind (oboe, sax, recorder, flute, diggeradoo, )
although you do blow through everything i guess except strings and drums.
 
Lt. Bob said:
I think the only axes you'd have any real possibility of too much moisture would be brass. Everything that goes in comes out of the bell so I don't think it's beyond possibility that in a small brass ax like trumpet, enough could come out to not be good for a condenser mic.
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One feature of brass instruments is a spit valve, which is something of a misnomer, as most of what comes out is really water that condensed as the air changed speeds and cooled inside the horn. By the time it comes out, it might be warmer than ambient air, but it shouldn't be warm enough and moist enough to cause much condensation when it hits a mic.

If there were enough moisture to condense on the diaphragm, you'd have condensation dripping off the bell, as it is likely to be the same temperature as the mic element, give or take.

For woodwinds, as you said, there's no possibility whatsoever. The only time any significant amount of air comes out the bell is when you have all the keys down (lowest note on the horn).

The only thing I'd worry about is using a close mic technique on a flute where the floutist is blowing on the mic. :)
 
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newcomputeruser said:
i consider the horns to be brass
the others are wind (oboe, sax, recorder, flute, diggeradoo, )
although you do blow through everything i guess except strings and drums.
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Horns are brass, the others are woodwinds. Both are considered wind instruments.

The usual categorization of musical instruments is:

  • Strings (three subfamilies):
    • hammered strings: piano, dulcimer
    • plucked strings: guitar, bass, harpsichord, harp, lots of other stuff.
    • bowed strings: violin, viola, cello, string bass, the viol family, etc.
  • Aerophones/wind instruments (two subfamilies):
    • open aerophones: harmonica, whistles, sirens, whips, etc.
    • closed aerophones: brass, woodwinds, pipe organ
  • Percussion (two subfamilies)
    • pitched percussion: timpani, Orff instruments, marimba, vibes, chimes, handbells, etc.
    • unpitched percussion: everything else

Alternative categorization schemes split out the piano and pipe organ into a separate "keyboard family". Sometimes piano is listed in the pitched percussion family. Either way, brass are closed aerophones, and thus are wind instruments.
 
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