Newb Student on a tight budget

[jab2980]

Nobody ever believes me! :lol:

The sound card isn't going to glitch for the majority of the time. They just don't do that.
I swear on my grandmother's grave that you get a better recording with good speakers and a stock sound card than you do with stock speakers and a good interface.

The analogy I always use:
Two equal guys make a digital painting.

One has a modern LCD properly calibrated but is stuck with MS paint and a mouse.
The other has a 1970's television with rabbit ears picking up the computer video signal broadcast over the air. It is full of snow and static, but he has Photoshop and a Wacom tablet.

Who makes the most accurate digital painting?

I'm challenging, but only for the purpose of my own learning. Let's assume little to no post processing is done on a recording and "regular" computer speakers are being used instead of monitor speakers. If I were to compare my recordings with "known" well-recorded examples on multiple sources (car, computer, stereo, etc) and was able to make some minor tweaks to at least make my recording sound somewhat similar, then I would think having decent mics and a decent interface would be key. While laborious, this seems to work for me so far. I recognize the advantage of having good monitor speakers, but cannot imagine how it outweighs having decent input equipment.

Since this topic is specifically in regards to the sound quality of the recording itself (not the skill of the musician), I would say that this analogy would fit this situation more from my perspective:

An amature with a decent point-and-shoot camera is going to take a better "quality" image with zero post processing than professional cameraman who is using a low end cell phone camera with a high end monitor and photo editing software. No matter how well the pro frames the subject, adjusts for lighting, and attempts to fix up the image, he is still at the mercy of the crappy sensor in his camera.

Please let me know what might be screwed up with my thinking for my sake and for the newb student also on a tight budget.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

If I were to compare my recordings with "known" well-recorded examples on multiple sources (car, computer, stereo, etc) and was able to make some minor tweaks to at least make my recording sound somewhat similar, then I would think having decent mics and a decent interface would be key.

As someone who does this professionally and has been doing it for 15 years: No. It doesn't work like that. Neither a minor nor a major tweak will make a mic in the wrong position sound like a mic in the right position. Compound that with the fact that without monitors you likely have a mic in the wrong position picking up an instrument making the wrong tone in the wrong position in the room. A $3000 mic going into a $20,000 interface picking up the wrong thing is just the best reproduction of "wrong" that money can buy.

Tweaks certainly make it better and can bring it all the way to "amateur good". But they can never approach placing the mic correctly at an instrument making the correct tone. And you need to hear crazy-good to do that.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

An amature with a decent point-and-shoot camera is going to take a better "quality" image with zero post processing than professional cameraman who is using a low end cell phone camera with a high end monitor and photo editing software. No matter how well the pro frames the subject, adjusts for lighting, and attempts to fix up the image, he is still at the mercy of the crappy sensor in his camera.

The analogy doesn't work because as you said, the camera is point n' shoot. Mics have no such automatic adjustments.

Put the amateur on a $10,000 SLR camera and don't let him use a single automated anything and then put the pro on a $300 SLR with the same rules. Then see what happens.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Actually, here is a better photography analogy since we are talking only about equipment, not amateur Vs Pro:


You live in a world with no automatic cameras. It's all manual for everything. You know you have poor vision. Do you spend $600 on an eye exam and contacts to bring yourself up to 20/20 and then take whatever is left to get a cheap camera, or do you forget about your eyes and drop $700 on a better camera? What results in better photos? If you've ever used a manual SLR, I think you know the answer.

 

[Krispy101]

Anyway, back to the topic on hand you two!

@cjakek I like the looks of that, but it doesn't look to be that expandable upon in the future, so I'll probably be sticking with the original USB mixer and then buy a couple of Dynamic mics and I'm ready to go!

One other thing though, if It's simply Vocalist/acoustic guitar I'm guessing I'll be needing two mics, as I'm assuming the final product is better if the artist is singing/strumming at the same time rather than recording guitar and then recording vocals.

Cheers, Kris

 

[cjacek]

if It's simply Vocalist/acoustic guitar I'm guessing I'll be needing two mics, as I'm assuming the final product is better if the artist is singing/strumming at the same time rather than recording guitar and then recording vocals.

Cheers, Kris

I would agree with that. The feel is more natural when recorded at the same time. I stay clear of overdubs as much as possible.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Anyway, back to the topic on hand you two!

I was on-topic.

You said you were looking to get started on a small budget. I said you would be better off dropping the interface and $100 mic because you need the money for something more important that wasn't even on your list... This is assuming your goal is to get the best recording setup for the money you have and the best shot at improving your own skills.

 

[cjacek]

you get a better recording with good speakers and a stock sound card than you do with stock speakers and a good interface.

The point is that microphones are not point n' shoot, and interfaces are not plug n' play. A $20 microphone set and aimed correctly will sound better than a $3000 microphone set and aimed incorrectly...especially in the hands of a novice.

It's not like you can just point and hope to "pick up everything" and then Eq out the bad stuff later. If you missed the good stuff, it's not there. And there is no way of knowing if you are pointing at the good stuff if you can't hear in crazy detail. There is no way of even knowing if the instrument is making the sound that the microphone is "asking" for.

Neither a minor nor a major tweak will make a mic in the wrong position sound like a mic in the right position. Compound that with the fact that without monitors you likely have a mic in the wrong position picking up an instrument making the wrong tone in the wrong position in the room. A $3000 mic going into a $20,000 interface picking up the wrong thing is just the best reproduction of "wrong" that money can buy.

Tweaks certainly make it better and can bring it all the way to "amateur good". But they can never approach placing the mic correctly at an instrument making the correct tone. And you need to hear crazy-good to do that.

It's not a question of believing you or not but rather that it is an accurate and sober way to look at things. I do agree and that's my take on it too. BTW, this def IS on topic. This type of advice saves the person, who's starting out, major bucks by not going in the way of gear hype but good, sound advice, which will do more for the final product than some boutique piece of equipment.

 

[Krispy101]

So, This is the shopping list so far:

Behringer XENYX 1204 Premium Mixer USB x1

AND

T.Bone SC400 XLR x2
OR
A cheap dynamic mic + SE Electronics GM10 Clamp-On Acoustic Guitar Microphone (How good are these things?)

AND

I'll need some suggestions for cheap monitor speakers, as then I'm going for the cheapest option, as I see no other viable way of connecting a couple of high quality mics to my PC, hence the mixer is required, and then the monitor of course, which will be required, so advice, once again, would be appreciated.

Thanks, Kris

 

[Disease8]

lol

Anyway, back to the topic on hand you two!

@cjakek I like the looks of that, but it doesn't look to be that expandable upon in the future, so I'll probably be sticking with the original USB mixer and then buy a couple of Dynamic mics and I'm ready to go!

One other thing though, if It's simply Vocalist/acoustic guitar I'm guessing I'll be needing two mics, as I'm assuming the final product is better if the artist is singing/strumming at the same time rather than recording guitar and then recording vocals.

Cheers, Kris

Yeah people always go off topic with debates on this forum I'm guilty to!

But back on topic: I would recommend what you decided on stick with the usb mixer. Not only do you get the mixer which will give you endless possibilities and integral to any studio, but you will have the built in USB sound card in the mixer so will be by passing your PC sound card anyway!

So forget the M-Audio and maybe get a bigger mixer you'll be able to adapt to any studio expansions like FX (auxilary outs on mixer), Compression (inserts)... etc.. and maybe more into monitors..

As for the microphone debate going on. Forst thing your getting confused about phantom power, the mixer has it its just a switch on the mixer that sends 24 volts down the mic outputs for Condenser mics.

I honestly think you can get away with a nice cheap mic A behringer XM8500 is a great starting mic only £16! LOL
I use them along side SM58's live and they always shock me.. I've got four!

Maybe get a cheap mxl condenser and the xm8500 you'll find its good to have te option of either. With a mixer you can expand to use both simultaniously or other instruments like keyboards..

Maybe I'm getting a bit over the top but making music is about experimenting and a mixer will change your life!

 

[cjacek]

I'll need some suggestions for cheap monitor speakers

Here's my suggestion:
http://www.zzounds.com/a--2676837/item--KRKRP5G2

Now, if you wanna really save money and don't need stereo, get just one and pan everything to one side. The only down-side is that you will have to settle for mono mixes. The upside is that you save money and can get the same quality monitoring. Keep the monitor dimmed somewhat (listen at lower volume) and it'll tell you how your mix really sounds. This is a good budget active monitor (no need for an amp).

 

[nave]

And you need to hear crazy-good to do that.

I think your digital painting analogy was good. But, who says you are going to hear crazy good with a nice set of monitors?

At least for me, it took years to figure out what sounds good and what doesn't sound good. Monitors didn't make a damn difference all that time. It was with random trial and error that I discovered what a good recorded kick drum sounds like. Sometimes, I still don't even know - one that I think should sound like shit surprises me and works perfectly.

What I'm getting at here is that in the same way that, as you say, interfaces are not plug and play, and microphones are not point and shoot, no one suddenly becomes blessed with a set of great ears the second they plug in a nice pair of monitors.

You are assuming that the novice homerecorder and maybe even the intermediate has the ears to recognize in the first place what sounds good and what sounds "wrong." Until that happens, it's pointless to talk about the relative importance of monitors vs audio interfaces. I suppose you'll argue that you'll never get to this point without monitors, but I disagree. As someone else said, you can always make relative comparisons to produced records across a variety of systems to get an approximation of where you stand. Sure, you'll never be able to develop the ear that someone has after listening on topnotch monitors for twenty years, but you'll at least know if you are on the right track. I would argue that when you are able to figure that out, that is, get an approximation in your head of what a nice audio image should sound like when played across a variety of lesser systems, then you will be ready for monitors. You'll have worked your way up to the point that buying a set of expensive monitors will be your worthwhile. Until then, they won't matter.


btw I do agree that most stock sound cards no longer have latency issues like they once did, at least mine doesn't. I have a two hundred dollar lap top with stock everything that can run 20 tracks of digital audio without a single moment of latency and it never even drops out either.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

What I'm getting at here is that in the same way that, as you say, interfaces are not plug and play, and microphones are not point and shoot, no one suddenly becomes blessed with a set of great ears the second they plug in a nice pair of monitors.

Right. It takes years to train your ears and longer to train your instinct to know what sound you're even looking for.

But if your speaker system is not presenting your music accurately, you'll never learn. How can you train to recognize and create sounds that aren't coming out of your speakers quite right? Back to the television analogy. Imagine you are teaching a child to identify colors. This piece of crap TV always displays yellow as orange. So, what do you tell the kid? "See that color? That's yellow. Only that's not what yellow looks like, so don't go calling that yellow...So are we clear on what yellow is?"

 

[Krispy101]

Thanks again guys,

I'm seriously thinking of them monitors cjak, the issue being what type of connectors do they use and how are they connected to the mixer?

Cheers, Kris

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Most monitors can take 1/4 inch connectors. Some take XLR as well.

 

[cjacek]

The KRK's take all popular connectors, the XLR, 1/4" and RCA.

 

[KrispyDK]

Hi there Krispy - from another UK Krispy!

Just skimmed through the posts so hope I'm not missing anything.

One UK store to try is digital village (www.dv247.com). Very good prices and stock and they seem to know what they're talking about.

I just picked up a studio projects B1 condenser from them for £89 and I'm very happy with it. (http://www.dv247.com/microphones/studio-projects-b1-condenser-microphone--2859)

On the mixer front, I've read so many bad things about behringer that I've stayed well clear of them (except for a patchbay!). I just got a brand new soundcraft compact 4 from ebay for £52. Try having a look for one of those over the xenyx I'd say. It's a neat little mixer with 2 quiet mic pre amps, a DI for electric guitars and fantastic routing options for a PC set up. The other little mixer that I've read good things about is the Peavey PV6. I'd certainly go with either of these over the behringer just on a build quality basis alone.

Or, if you're setting up a pc based recording setup, maybe you just need some good mic pre's which can plug into your soundcard? The M-Audio audio buddy is ok or the M-Audio DMP3 is superb (I just got one of these from digital village too).

Just my two-pence worth!

 

[gecko zzed]

The sound card isn't going to glitch for the majority of the time. They just don't do that.
I swear on my grandmother's grave that you get a better recording with good speakers and a stock sound card than you do with stock speakers and a good interface.

That may be the case, but it is not reflected in HR, where the forums abound with posts from people who have been trying to record by plugging mikes into their stock, on-board soundcards, and appeared to be plagued with noise, glitches, latency and other recording gremlins.

Trying to record that way is trying to use a Wacom tablet which is not working properly (for example: "You see, every time I open the Photoshop with my mouse, and then pick up the tablet and start using it, the tablet will not be able to drag. Which means, I can point and click and the pen and the tablet will work fine, but if I press the pen at the tablet and start drawing, the cursor will not move. Now, if I close Photoshop, and open it again but this time not with a mouse but with the tablet, then everything works perfect!")

I agree with your analogy, though, specially this: "Put the amateur on a $10,000 SLR camera and don't let him use a single automated anything and then put the pro on a $300 SLR with the same rules. Then see what happens."

My main contention is, however, that you can't get any usable recordings unless the machinery that does the recording functions properly, and the anecdotal evidence is that the machinery of onboard soundcards is not suitable for recording.

 

[Krispy101]

I can't see any other XLR Connectors on the behringer mixer though other than the four used for input, I'm assuming there is another way to connect the monitors?

 

[KrispyDK]

Krispy - can I ask...what do you need the usb connection for on the mixer?

I think you may get slightly better results using an audiophile 24/96 sound card and a cheaper (but better) mixer. The mixer would connected to the main inputs on the sound card using phono leads.

I've never used a USB connected mixer but I've not heard that many good things about them, particularly from a latency point of view.

You could get a audiophile soundcard and peavey pv6 mixer (which I think would be better quality than the behringer) for the same price as the xenyx mixer.

As I mentioned earlier - have a browse through the dv247.com website and see what you can find.