Synching Drum Machine?

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Mick Doobie

Mick Doobie

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If anyone would be so kind...

I'm new to recording...a newbie...and just got a Tascam 2488 neo for Christmas. Anyway...

Edit: I'll place this edit up front to jump to the chase instead of possibly confusing the issue with ramblings. Short and sweet: When using a pre-programmed drum machine, and then laying down the track, if I am later after recording guitars unhappy with the drum track, how can I avoid re-recording all the guitars if I later decide to replace the drum track?...how do I synch a new drum track with previously recorded guitar tracks?

...end of edit. More explanation below if needed.


I have a question about synching the drum machine with previously recorded guitar/bass tracks. For instance: I've programmed the entire song from the get-go on the drum machine(Boss DR670..kinda sucky), and then lay down the drums on stereo tracks 23/24. Then, I lay down a bass track(track 1), and also a guitar track(track 2). However, at this point I hear flaws in the drum track. I go back and pan the tom(s) and hi-hat, or cut back the level and fatten-up the snare. Say I like the bass and guitar track(s) and feel they are keepers. But if I want to replace the drum track, how do I synch the drum track with the previously recorded guitar and bass tracks? The best I can come up with thus far is to click the start button on the drum machine in relation to the other tracks...which is iffy, and depends on me hitting the start button on the drum machine at precisely the right millisecond. This method isn't cutting it. I'm sure there is a proper and much better method that involves click, and is probably spelled out in my manual. But hell, I'm trying to get some recording done, not become a technician, although I realize that recording and knowing how your gear operates are both necessary elements of successfully fullfilling future goals. Maybe a bit of advice combined with reviewing my manual with the advice in mind would be more helpful than simply reading the manual and groping around to solve the problem

I'm just looking for maybe a slight headstart in the right direction. If anyone can give me a nudge, i'd appreciate it.

Thanks.
 
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Bump.

Any help would be very much appreciated.

How can I avoid losing all of my guitar tracks if/when I decide that the drum track isn't up to par? If I redo the drums, how can I synch the new drum machine track up to be in time with the previously recorded keeper guitar tracks? Am I just stuck re-recording everything(guitar/bass/keys)?

It's a drag to lose all of my guitar/bass tracks when I want to change something about the drums.
 
I'm not the best for this answer, but I have done it before..:o..Probably gonna have to sync the drum machine to the Tascam via MIDI/SMPTE time code.. Make the drum machine the master since you have program it and let the Tascam slave to it ( follow it)..The way to do this should be in both the drum machine and Tascams manual..Hope this helps a little..Good luck..
 
Hi,

I'm not sure about what you have and what it can do, but this is how I do it.

The recorder (MX2424) has a smpte out which is connected to a smpte input on my sequencing computer. The sequencing computer has the drum track written in midi (on a drum map page) and this is programmed for the whole song. The sequencing computer has a midi out which is connected to the drum machine. This allows for playing the drum machine track while recording and being able to program new parts at any time and have them play back in time.

So the computer is set up to case the smpte time code and the drum machine is set to slave to the midi Clock.

However I read that the 2488 has a midi file player on board, you should be able to write you drum parts to this, sync the song to the player (which is playing the drum machine), and at any time change the file to add a different rhythm or extra roll (as long as the same tempo is used).

Cheers

alan.
 
To synch a drum machine to your recorder should be pretty simple - hook up a midi cable from the out of the recorder to the in on the drum machine and set the recorder as master and the dm as slave (may not even need to do that).

The drum machine will follow along with the recorder when ever you hit play or record. It may be best if you set the display on the recorder to show midi beats and not time in minutes and seconds - easier to follow along that way or edit. You may need to set the beats per minute in the recorder too.

You say you just want to record and not become a tech? Well, you better get used to it bud. That's the way things are today. Read your manual and get as acquainted and knowledgeable as you can on your gear!
 
Ahm, that "not wanting to be a tech" statement was sort of made in jest, bud.

I'll get there. I've only been at this for a month. I've read, followed through with applying what I have read, and reread what I have thus far acquainted myself with doing. I've read some of what is said in my manual about midi, I just don't understand it, yet. Actually, i'm having alot of fun, and don't really mind recording things over everytime I decide to change the drums. Each time I become more familiar with my recorder, and the drums sound better(although they are still fake drums), and i'm able to hone my ideas/playing. But there will come a time when I won't want to lose what I have already recorded. It's a learning process, though I would rather spend as much time as possible playing music rather than studying a manual. Maybe by the time I record something that's worth keeping I will have figured out this midi thing. Hm, could take a while. :o

From what I have read in my manual, in order to get on the road to synching things, I should be setting beats per minute and a time sig on my recorder. I'm just not entirely sure where to go from there. I'm not yet sure what midi channel to assign...or whatever. I have a midi cable somewhere around here that I used to use with with my Rockman Midi pedal, years ago. I'll take the help you all have given, read my manual some more, hook the damn midi cable up...and see what happens.

Anyway, thank you all for posting with advice. Feel free to expound if the mood hits.
 
Yes the MIDI Timecode is what you need to sync to your recorder. Im not sure if you even have to do anything on your recorder but your drum machine will need to be switched to slave. Look up MIDI Timecode in your drum machine manual. It should tell you how to set it up. Once you do that, once you hit the play/record it will tell the drum machine to play those notes. Depending on your drum machine and recorder, you may only be able to record single instruments at one time. You still need your instrument cable hooked up to transfer the sound. You should be good once you slave the drum machine to the recorder.
 
Also as far as MIDI channel goes, I think MIDI channel "10" is the drum default channel for most manufactors..
 
Also as far as MIDI channel goes, I think MIDI channel "10" is the drum default channel for most manufactors
Click to expand...

Im pretty sure he is only talking about syncing the audio from the drum machine. Im almost positive no midi channels will have to be touched.

Once your drum machine is slaved to the recorder, once you hit record on your recorder, the audio will automatically play from the drum machine. You just record each instrument one by one until your done. Not much to it.
 
Oh noez...i'll have to record each percussion instrument separately?...that's, what, 6-7....9 channels? I can see how mixing the drums when recorded in such a manner would be a much better way of tweeking everything to get an overall good sound/mix, but sheesh. It also sounds alot more complicated. Right now i'm programming patterns on the drum machine, and then linking the patterns, with the entire song pre-programmed. The tune I am working on right now, I have one pattern counting the intro off with the hat, and then a silence measure wherein the guitar comes in halfway through the measure to intro the first real measure of the song. I've left about ten seconds before the count-off to get situated after clicking record. I suppose when I link things up, when I hit record the count-off will begin? I don't know if that really means anything or is relevant, I think i'm just rambling.

My drum machine, the Boss DR-670, the manual says that there is a separate publication which has the midi implementation chart. Perhaps my next step is to search the net for the chart, check it out and then ask you all some more questions.

I appreciate you guys helping me out. This will be a really big hurdle to efficiently recording in the future, once I figure how to do it.

Thanks.
 
Taken directly from Pg. 86 of the DR-679 Manual

You can synchronize the DR-670’s performances
with digital recorders, MIDI sequencers, rhythm
machines, and other such devices.
Master and Slave
When synchronizing two or more devices, one is
made the “master” device and all others “slaves.”
fig.09-05
When the master device is started or stopped, a
MIDI message for that operation is transmitted.
The slave or slaves then start or stop in
accordance with the transmitted MIDI message.
Furthermore, timing clock data corresponding to
the tempo is transmitted by the master device.
Slave devices synchronize their performances to
this timing clock.
Other data transmitted from the master device
to slave devices includes song numbers (Song
Select) and the position of song performances
(Song Position Pointer).
Click to expand...

On your RECORDER plug the midi cable in the MIDI OUT. On your DRUM MACHINE plug the midi cable into the MIDI IN.

Now you will have to switch your DRUM MACHINE into MIDI MODE.(note: this may not need to be done but I would try this first.)

Plug your 1/4 instrument cable from your DRUM MACHINE to your RECORDER in the necessary slot. Now you will need to enable the track to record. YOU WILL NEED TO MUTE EVERY INSTRUMENT EXCEPT THE ONE YOU WANT RECORDED. Unless of course you just want to record the whole thing to the recorder as one track. Up to you.

Like I said up top, Page 86 of the Drum Machine manual is where you will find the info. You may need to adjust it get it to work but once it is working correctly, you will be able to press record/play on the recorder and the drum machine will automatically start playing. You will need to adjust the individual track gain if your going to do single instrument tracks.

I would suggest waiting to record the guitar tracks until your drums are recorded so you dont have timing issues. If you want to then adjust the drums you will be able to repeat the steps above and still keep timing. Good luck.
 
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I used to record along with a synced drum machine quite a bit.

The biggest advantage of syncing a drum machine is that you don't have to record your drums,at least not until you mix down.

When you decide to mix down,you can do it to a stereo track,unless you want to do some special processing to a track.The boss has panning,volume,EQ and effects built in,in effect it has it's own mixer.

Have you been recording to a click or just free wheeling?
 
Much obliged, Stealth Prod. Yeah, I read that in my drum manual. I wasn't sure if I needed to assign a channel from the midi implementation chart(which isn't included/listed in the manual), or whatever. I appreciate you just kind of spelling it out for me. I don't mind doing things trial and error, and sometimes prefer to learn by actually doing(after reading...even if I don't totally understand what I have read), but I also don't want to harm my gear by hooking something up incorrectly. From your description, it sounds pretty basic...maybe I should just hook it up and see what happens.

Hey Acidrock...thanks for joining the conversation. What I have been doing, I have sat down with the drum machine, and programmed the individual patterns, some are merely copies of others with slight variations(a crash cymbal, etc.). Then I will link the individual patterns in the "Song" section of the drum machine. Then I all I have to do on the drum machine is click Start, and it plays the song. Then I will record the drums on stereo tracks 23/24 on my 2488 neo, while a smoke a cig....no other recording but the drums on that "session". Then I record a bass track(which I may or may not keep in the long run), and guitars, etc. So.....after reading through some of the sections here in this site, and listening to some recordings by others, I decide I should go back to the drum machine and pan some of the instruments(floor tom left, hihat slightly right, ride left, crash slightly right, etc.), and also make adjustments to the snare's eq, as well as the kick drum.

This is where my problem comes in. Now, when I want to re-record the drums on 23/24, and still hang on to the bass guitar on track 1, guitars track 2 and 3, I don't know how to synch the new drums with the old keeper guitar tracks.

I suppose it goes back to how I originally recorded the drums(or should have recorded the drums). They need to be on some kind of clock, or recorded using the midi thing from the get-go?

You brought up an interesting point. Suppose I record an idea on guitar. If I record with a recorder click track(the recorders click track), how can I later add drums and they be in synch? As of right now, i'm having to get the entire song's arrangement in my head and program it on the drum machine before doing anything else. This works fine and will probably be the way in which I record most of the time. But options are good and I would like to have the option of recording a guitar track and later add drums to it. Also, when inspiration hits, I would like to get to it on the guitar rather than programming a drum track before even picking up the guitar...by that time my focus has moved from the musical element of recording to the technical side...and the moment of inspiration may be lost.

I appreciate you guys patience with me. I may be being hardheaded...or dense. Apologies if that is the case. Today is Saturday, the weather is bad outside(we may be getting some ice/freezing rain), so it's a perfect day to do some recording. Perhaps sometime during the day I may hook up the midi cable and see what happens.

Again, thanks very much.[and sorry for the long rambling post(s)]
 
Mick Doobie said:
Hey Acidrock...thanks for joining the conversation. What I have been doing, I have sat down with the drum machine, and programmed the individual patterns, some are merely copies of others with slight variations(a crash cymbal, etc.). Then I will link the individual patterns in the "Song" section of the drum machine. Then I all I have to do on the drum machine is click Start, and it plays the song. Then I will record the drums on stereo tracks 23/24 on my 2488 neo, while a smoke a cig....no other recording but the drums on that "session". Then I record a bass track(which I may or may not keep in the long run), and guitars, etc. So.....after reading through some of the sections here in this site, and listening to some recordings by others, I decide I should go back to the drum machine and pan some of the instruments(floor tom left, hihat slightly right, ride left, crash slightly right, etc.), and also make adjustments to the snare's eq, as well as the kick drum.

This is where my problem comes in. Now, when I want to re-record the drums on 23/24, and still hang on to the bass guitar on track 1, guitars track 2 and 3, I don't know how to synch the new drums with the old keeper guitar tracks.

I suppose it goes back to how I originally recorded the drums(or should have recorded the drums). They need to be on some kind of clock, or recorded using the midi thing from the get-go?

You brought up an interesting point. Suppose I record an idea on guitar. If I record with a recorder click track(the recorders click track), how can I later add drums and they be in synch? As of right now, i'm having to get the entire song's arrangement in my head and program it on the drum machine before doing anything else. This works fine and will probably be the way in which I record most of the time. But options are good and I would like to have the option of recording a guitar track and later add drums to it. Also, when inspiration hits, I would like to get to it on the guitar rather than programming a drum track before even picking up the guitar...by that time my focus has moved from the musical element of recording to the technical side...and the moment of inspiration may be lost.

I appreciate you guys patience with me. I may be being hardheaded...or dense. Apologies if that is the case. Today is Saturday, the weather is bad outside(we may be getting some ice/freezing rain), so it's a perfect day to do some recording. Perhaps sometime during the day I may hook up the midi cable and see what happens.

Again, thanks very much.[and sorry for the long rambling post(s)]
Click to expand...

How you describe your recording method is how I recorded before I learn to sync.


First off you if you are able to conceptualIze and sequence your drums on the Boss before hand,that's fine,we all have different methods and whatever works is right.That has no effect on whether or not you sync your machine.

If you want to sync a drum machine you have to start from zero.

If you choose to use your recorder's click,set the tempo and record away as normal.As long as you follow the click,everything should line up to beats,bars and measures.This is super important if you ever choose to edit or want to change an arrangement without rerecording the whole song.You can also program your drums later along with the tracks or independently.

If you have a pre-sequenced drum track you will set the recorders midi output to master and the drum machines master to slave.The channel settings don't matter as long as they are the same or one or both is set to omni(meaning all channels).There may be settings referring to whether you want MTC or MMC,you'll have to refer to the manuals for these settings.

And of course you need midi cables AND audio cables connected.

Now if everything works the way it should,your recorder's transport controls,stop,start,back to start/end should control your drum machine.With my Roland recorder I could also use my markers to go from place to place on my songs and the drum machine synced perfectly.


One great advantage of syncing is you can just use a beat as a click track and program your drums later,sounds as well as patterns.

MIDI is your friend,syncing is just the tip of the iceberg.
 
Thanks man.

Exactly, I would much rather at times just set my drum machine to a beat...just so I have something other than a click track to record a guitar idea...then later if I feel the guitar idea is worth pursuing I can then fuss with programming a decent drum track.

Yeah, I gotta get a handle on this midi thing. I have an old Rockman Midi Pedal, and wondered if I could possibly use it to control either/or my drum machine and/or recorder...as in stop, start, fills, etc. But hey, one step at a time...best not to open that can of worms right now.

Thank you guys for helping me out and being so patient.
 
Mick Doobie said:
Thanks man.

Exactly, I would much rather at times just set my drum machine to a beat...just so I have something other than a click track to record a guitar idea...then later if I feel the guitar idea is worth pursuing I can then fuss with programming a decent drum track.
Click to expand...

Plus you can edit audio a lot easier.You want an extra chorus?No need to redo the whole song,copy and paste.Every thing is lined up neatly to a grid,just like building blocks that can be interchanged.
 
Indeed. In fact, I just ran into that exact situation...or rather, coming out of the chorus I needed to add an intro into the second verse or things would not work out right, because the chorus vocals bleed into the 2nd verse vocals. Had to go all the way back to the starting line, add the 2nd verse intro into my drum machine song chain, and record everything all over. I wasn't really broke up about it. Like I said, right now I don't mind, but in the future when I get a bit better at this whole "writing" and recording, such methods of returning to the starting line could cause me to lose some good keeper takes...if I don't get the synch thing down. But, dobedo, i've only been at this for about a month, so right now the repetition is good so I become thoroughly familiar with the basics....and every new step along the way.

I think I am going to redo the drum track yet again, and change where a kick drum lands in one part of the verse. Maybe if I can find time(and my midi cable) i'll try synching things with the midi thing this time.

Appreciate the help...will let you know how it turns out...or if I have any problems/questions.
 
Okay!...I got it working w/ midi. Thank you guys.

I still might not have it totally down yet, though.

I had to set the tempo map on the recorder or it wouldn't play the drum machine at the programed/pre-selected tempo. It would also start playing the drum machine as soon as I pressed play/record(just as you said it would), so I added a couple of empty patterns on the drum machine so I would have time to get settled to record guitars and such once I pressed record.

I'm now scratching my head with another dilemma(unrelated to synching w/ midi), so I guess I will ask your opinion in this thread...as good a place as any I suppose.

I'm having a difficult time fattening up the snare by using the drum machine functions. Of course I can eq on the recorder, but....now i'm wondering if I should record the snare, kick, and other stuff separately. That's alot of damn work because I will have to delete the snare and everything else on the drum machine while recording the kick, then once the kick is recorded add back in the snare and delete the kick...then after the kick and snare are recorded add the toms and delete the kick and snare..and so on and so on.

acidrock, you said you used to use the same drum machine...did you just record the entire kit and then eq on the recorder, or did you record things separately for mixing/eqing purposes?

I didn't want to start another thread, so pardon my off topic questions.
 
Mick Doobie said:
I'm having a difficult time fattening up the snare by using the drum machine functions. Of course I can eq on the recorder, but....now i'm wondering if I should record the snare, kick, and other stuff separately. That's alot of damn work because I will have to delete the snare and everything else on the drum machine while recording the kick, then once the kick is recorded add back in the snare and delete the kick...then after the kick and snare are recorded add the toms and delete the kick and snare..and so on and so on.

acidrock, you said you used to use the same drum machine...did you just record the entire kit and then eq on the recorder, or did you record things separately for mixing/eqing purposes?

I didn't want to start another thread, so pardon my off topic questions.
Click to expand...
I'm assuming that you are not recording the drums at this moment rather monitoring thru the recorder input.

First off,did you try editing the snare parameters in the drum kit function?
Change samples or even try tuning the snare to a sweeter spot in the mix?


You could try turning down the volime on the drums to 0 in the drumkit edit function,flip flopping levels as needed as you record.This of course can only be done because you're in sync.

I had the 660 which had a dedicated output for special processing,as opposed to the 670's footswitch which is more performance orientated.You do however have better samples on the 670.

Congratulations btw,you've just made your gear more powerful.
 
acidrock said:
You could try turning down the volime on the drums to 0 in the drumkit edit function,flip flopping levels as needed as you record.This of course can only be done because you're in sync.
Click to expand...

doh...why didn't I think of that? Instead of deleting anything I could just edit the drum kit and turn the volume down on everything but the kick and record the kick on one track...then turn down everything but the snare and put the snare on another track..and so on. I really should have thought of that myself....feeling a bit stupid at the moment. :o

Thanks for all of the help acidrock. You've definitely helped me over a hurdle and put me on my way to at least getting past this crucial stage. On to the next hurdle(s)....
 
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