New Mix Position Cloud or Back Wall Absorption?

[Jeff_D]

quick question... I have 3 and a half pieces of 4" 703 left from my last project. At first I thought a new cloud over my mix position would be good, since what is there now is kind small- its 3" rockwool mounted on a plywood backing. So, I figured a thin metal or wood frame with the 703 wrapped in fabric and set inside would be good. The new cloud would be 6' x 4'.

...then I though, well maybe more absorption at the back of the room would be good... Unfortunately I don't really have a symetrical back wall to treat. I've never really been sure what to do with that. I already have two 4'wide x 6'+ tall gobos back there on wheels. So, would another be more valuable than a new mix position cloud???

This picture shows the two clouds (white) that I'd replace with a new big cloud.




Or, should I do both? I can get more 703 if need be. (or neither? you gotta better idea?)

My last project was hinged absorbers behind the drums on front of the two build in bookshelves on either side of the fireplace. its almost getting too dead back there... a diffusion project may be in my future, but I'll save that for another thread...

 

[tmix]

It is hard to say, but in my opinion the cloud you currently have is too small to be of much use. I would put the larger cloud over your mix position and retire the other clouds to behind you.

I have quite I bit more absorption in my mix area than you and it is not dead at all.

 

[Jeff_D]

Thanks Tom. I kinda figured my current cloud wasn't up to snuff. It was really kinda made out of extras that I had after I did the walls. I moved some stuff from my old house (first 'studio'). I can actually probably make the new one 7'+ by 4'.

As far as being too dead, I'm sure my mix area isn't even close to too dead . I do like a live drum sound though, and my last project added absorption back around the drums.

 

[tmix]

I like a livlier room for drums too.
I have stained concrete floors which help add some reflections, and I have removable wall absorbers for when I want to create a live....er... sound.

I actually hung electrical conduit on the walls and put hooks on my panels so I can move them around,
The hooks on the panels also allow them to be hooked onto a microphone fixed boom when set horizontal so I can use them as gobos.

 

[pandamonk]

quick question... I have 3 and a half pieces of 4" 703 left from my last project. At first I thought a new cloud over my mix position would be good, since what is there now is kind small- its 3" rockwool mounted on a plywood backing. So, I figured a thin metal or wood frame with the 703 wrapped in fabric and set inside would be good. The new cloud would be 6' x 4'.

...then I though, well maybe more absorption at the back of the room would be good... Unfortunately I don't really have a symetrical back wall to treat. I've never really been sure what to do with that. I already have two 4'wide x 6'+ tall gobos back there on wheels. So, would another be more valuable than a new mix position cloud???

This picture shows the two clouds (white) that I'd replace with a new big cloud.




Or, should I do both? I can get more 703 if need be. (or neither? you gotta better idea?)

My last project was hinged absorbers behind the drums on front of the two build in bookshelves on either side of the fireplace. its almost getting too dead back there... a diffusion project may be in my future, but I'll save that for another thread...

I think you should use the 4'x4' panel behind your monitors as a cloud and move the clouds you are using now to directly behind each monitor. Then make a 6'x4' gobo panel for the back wall.

I also feel the your side wall absorbers aren't quite in the FRP and are therefore less effective than they could be.

 

[scott free]

quick question... I have 3 and a half pieces of 4" 703 left from my last project. At first I thought a new cloud over my mix position would be good, since what is there now is kind small- its 3" rockwool mounted on a plywood backing. So, I figured a thin metal or wood frame with the 703 wrapped in fabric and set inside would be good. The new cloud would be 6' x 4'.

...then I though, well maybe more absorption at the back of the room would be good... Unfortunately I don't really have a symetrical back wall to treat. I've never really been sure what to do with that. I already have two 4'wide x 6'+ tall gobos back there on wheels. So, would another be more valuable than a new mix position cloud???

This picture shows the two clouds (white) that I'd replace with a new big cloud.




Or, should I do both? I can get more 703 if need be. (or neither? you gotta better idea?)

My last project was hinged absorbers behind the drums on front of the two build in bookshelves on either side of the fireplace. its almost getting too dead back there... a diffusion project may be in my future, but I'll save that for another thread...

YES! I like what your doing, gears turning etc. Cool photo, Awesome drawing!
Hey, make up your panels, place them in the locations you are thinking about, with temporary mounting. Try it on in one spot for bit, move em, and taste again.
Respect.
Scott.

 

[Jeff_D]

Hey PM- thanks for the feedback. Switching the 4'x4' on the front wall with the current cloud will result in pretty much the same size cloud. Plus the two pieces that make the cloud now aren't even the same size so I think they'd require some rework (rofl- like I said they were made from spare parts).

Since I made that plan, I have moved the desk and monitors a little further back in the room, and as a result I think the frp aligns a little better (but not perfectly) on the first 2'x6' panel on the side walls. Unfortunately I didn't have a lot of options for where to put the doors when I built that right side wall, and I opted to leave myself some room to get a corner trap in that corner instead of pushing the door all the way to the corner.

So, I'm thinking with the 3+ pieces I have now, new bigger cloud. Then get another case (which is 6 pieces) and do the back wall gobo. I might even go 6ft. wide by 6ft tall with that, since thats about how much room I have between the 2 gobos back there now in the configuration of this drawing anyway.

Then with the spare pieces, I can do something directly behind the monitors. Maybe I'll eventually double up that first sidewall panel, but the trouble will be that half of it will be over teh door opening- so either panels on the door or something hinged on the wall to swing in front of the door. idk...

 

[Jeff_D]

YES! I like what your doing, gears turning etc. Cool photo, Awesome drawing!
Hey, make up your panels, place them in the locations you are thinking about, with temporary mounting. Try it on in one spot for bit, move em, and taste again.
Respect.
Scott.

Thanks Scott. I draw for a living- mostly commercial and industrial stuff- I'm not licensed yet, but I have a degree in architecture.

Sometimes I feel like my 'studio' is all function and no form, lol. It definitely isn't as pretty as some of the others around here, but I'm getting close to having it sound as good. Someday, I'll spend money on drywall and flooring, but for now I have to make due with an unfinished look. I'm putting my $ into better sound.

For the cloud, I was planning on one big 4ft x 7ft.+ frame faced with fabric (duck cloth comes in 5' wide rolls). So, once I build that, finding another location would be tough.

I will say that those 2 back gobos move around ALOT depending on what I'm doing. For normal band practice, I'll spin em to face the band area. When I'm mixing, I'll rotate them similar to the plan above, but usually I have them butted side by side instead of spread out. When we do vocals or other indivdual instruments, they get rotated so they kind make a 90 degree angle tucked in the corner between the sidewall of the bathroom and the back door.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hey Jeff,heres my .02 Use the piece for a new cloud.

Then build a portable "Poly Gobo"

One thing I did notice is because your rooms are NOT isolated from each other, you have whats known as a "coupled space" condition. This results in a TWO SLOPE RT-60. This has been studied at length, to the point Russ Berger and others use "loosely coupled spaces" to lengthen the reverb tail via a special aperture filler which controls and directs the secondary slope. Its called a "Space Coupler". How and to what extent you could take advantage of this I don't know exactly, but it might be worth investigating.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/closeup/PSSC22--Main
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/bass...oam-etc/443346-what-about-space-couplers.html
http://cedb.asce.org/cgi/WWWdisplay.cgi?0603683
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19739732
http://www.inspiredacoustics.com/wiki/index.php/Coupled_Space_Acoustics

Perhaps something like this, for more flexibility.

fitZ

 

[Jeff_D]

Dang Rick! Thats a pretty close rendition.

I've pretty much decided that I need a new cloud more than anything else at the moment... so, now I'm focusing on how to build it. I have (3) full 2x4 pieces and (1) ~1x4ft piece. So, I'm thinking, might as well use it all for the cloud.

The easy thing to do would be to build a 7ft by 4ft frame out of 1x4 boards, stretch fabric over the face and use a bracket to screw it tight to the underside of the ceiling joists.

But, I saw a picture on another site (that I can't find right now ) where the guy used what looked like drip edge (like for along the edge of your roof, lol) and made a frame, hung that and then just set his 703 pieces already wrapped into the frame... which means the sides of the absorber are then all exposed for additional absorption. I think if I go this route I'd use ceiling grid or a light gage stock angle or something instead of drip edge, lol. I like to use duck cloth for my stuff, which is like a light canvas (60" wide too) and i think would be a little harder to get crisp corners when wrapping a bare piece of fiberglass, which means the wood frame would make upholstering easier... I dunno...

---------------------------------

Tell me more about the poly absorber... I'm not familiar with that. I was actually thinking about making an arched front gobo like that (I swear, I was ), but your drawing looks like its got a wood face?

---------------------------------

More than anything else, your rendering makes me REALLY want to put down a wood floor in there!

 

[pandamonk]

Tell me more about the poly absorber... I'm not familiar with that.

It's not an absorber; more of a curved deflector. A gobo version of what Ethan describes in his acoustic faq, 'Diffusors and Absorbers'.

 

[pandamonk]

One thing I did notice is because your rooms are NOT isolated from each other, you have whats known as a "coupled space" condition. This results in a TWO SLOPE RT-60. This has been studied at length, to the point Russ Berger and others use "loosely coupled spaces" to lengthen the reverb tail via a special aperture filler which controls and directs the secondary slope. Its called a "Space Coupler". How and to what extent you could take advantage of this I don't know exactly, but it might be worth investigating.

fitZ

Would there be much benefit to this over actually "isolating" the space with a stud wall?

 

[Jeff_D]

Thanks PandaMonk- I really need to re-read that. Its been several years...

As far as splitting the room into two rooms, that really isn't practical I don't think. The vast majority of the time, this space is used for my own band practice and I like that its big and open. Unless the space is just "un-workable" as one big (oddly shaped) room, I'd prefer to keep it open.

Oh and Rick the big thing your drawing doesnt account for is the back door that goes to back porch, so doing treatment in that corner is pretty much out.

 

[CIRO]

A wider cloud will improve your image and probably something "a bit" in the response too (you don´t talked about frequency response of mixing room, it´s allright?)

Nice space you have, good luck!

 

[Jeff_D]

Frequency response is workable IMO, but I'm sure its not perfect. It was obvious when installed the current treatments that they made a big difference. Low end is still a little hard to distinguish. My mixes definitely translate better to the real world than they did in my untreated space.

To be honest, the math of calculating RT60 and frequency and modes, etc, especially for my L shaped room is a bit beyond me, and I don't have the gear to measure it- though maybe picking up a measuring mic and some kind of software would be a worthwhile investment, that I way I can quantify some of this stuff.

I do think improving the imaging will help tremendously. (I hope, lol) I certainly don't think it will hurt.

 

[CIRO]

http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/

Room eq wizard is free, and excelent for measure frequency response and RT60;
the great with a software is that with a 2 or 3 seconds sweep you have precious information; it helps a lot to show you the best engineer/monitors position.
Ciro

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Would there be much benefit to this over actually "isolating" the space with a stud wall?

Hi Pandamonk! Actually....I just used this to illustrate how Space Couplers are used. In reality, the "partition" wall would be between the studio and an usused space such as a large space above the studio...say if it had 20' high walls, or an adjacent space. In Jeffs case, it would all depend on his preferences. I only showed it like that because he already was recording without the benifit of an iso wall, and this might allow the control room to be the "larger" space. Frankly though, this is probably not correct, and I would actually suggest a solid wall with good TL. This was just to illustrate how they are used. Also, I'm sure the "secondary" room is calculated and treated to specs that make the "space coupler" work as designed. But like I said..."How and to what extent you could take advantage of this I don't know exactly, but it might be worth investigating. " I never said I KNOW how to use them correctly...if indeed they work...which if the world of Studio Design tells me anything...its BUYER BEWARE.


As a caveat, I've read these are one of those "proprietary" acoustical devices the patent holder uses in his "acoustical" designs. But just as other designers use ORD's, there are just as many that claim they are worthless, and swear by Polys instead. Pandamonk, you know I've kicked this acoustical "point of view" horse from here to eternity, on every forum that talks about this stuff. And I SWEAR, it still goes on.
See the continuing "debate" over small room diffusion here

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13591



In fact, this whole thing about "diffusers" has PISSED ME OFF!! These acousticians will NEVER NEVER NEVER pin things down in black and white. I've had acousticians tell me they would NEVER use QRD's. I've had some studio designers tell me FLAT OUT...they DON"T FUCKING WORK!!! And no sooner than I post these statements from them on a forum, a half dozen other ones proceed to tell me they are CRAZY!! They DO work....and then post all kinds of "scientific proof".

Let me give you a PERFECT example. Here is what one of the owners of READY TRAPS said in regards to QRD's...

The world of studio design abounds with anti-scientific ideas. Clients want cool looking structures that express in physical form a wide range of wacky esoteric ideas. Corrugated diffusers are only one example. Designers and builders serve these emotional needs to the extent their clients have the money to fund its realization, and that's OK with me even if the Pope is a bit miffed. We might as well start bitching about fancy automobiles having little statutes of naked women on the hood because they don't make the car go faster. I say - let the boys have their fun.

But if you want to understand how well a curved plate works as a diffuser, versus how poorly all these silly corrugated surfaces work you can start reading some scientific papers on the subject [a couple of suggested papers are listed below to start you off]. You can also use standard speaker directivity measurement techniques [ground plane measurement method] to explore the matter yourself - it aint rocket surgery.

You will soon find that the corrugated stuff, to the extent it works at all, only works at certain frequency bands. Between these bands are lobes of utter ineffectiveness. Also you will find that at anything other than normal incidence, such diffusive performance as the device do obtain at normal incidence quickly collapses at other angles.

This is why when a professional is serious about needing diffusion [as opposed to just messing with the clients head and providing some eye-candy] they use a curved plate. If you look in a reverb chamber where maximizing diffusion is critical to measurement accuracy, you will not find corrugated diffusers in the corners, you will instead find curved plates

That statement was from here...
http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3533&p=49208&hilit=corrugated#p49208

After I posted this statement at PROREC, I got a few replys from other studio designers/acousticians who, as usual, scoffed at this statement and then posted these links.
http://vimeo.com/7507997
http://vimeo.com/6461707


unfuckingbelievable. Good thing these guys arn't Surgeons. I bet they never worked on cars, or replaced a Septic tank either...which is a perfect analogy. Either it WORKS or it DOESN"T!! If it doesn't..then your up to your eyeballs in SHIT.

And "diffusers" arn't the only subject they "disagree" on. Theres splayed walls/ceilings vs rectangular rooms, vertical angle of monitors, flush mounting vs freestanding monitors, engineering position, etc etc etc..the list is too long to post. But just for the sake of proving my point...check this out.
http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/29004/0/

geeeezushfuckingchrist. I don't believe ANY of them anymore. In fact, here is the bottom line for me. I POINT BLANK asked Francis Manzella(who uses QRD's all the time)..."Once your design has been built, how do you
QUALIFY the design meets specified benchmarks. The answer was pretty much "a check from the client if his ears are happy."

Well, enough rant. Back to filling in my Septic Tank hole. At least "I" know....it WORKS!!

 

[Weasel9992]

Tell me more about the poly absorber... I'm not familiar with that. I was actually thinking about making an arched front gobo like that (I swear, I was ), but your drawing looks like its got a wood face?

They typically do have a wood face. I like this idea, too...I have a couple of 3'x4'x8" gobos with poly diffusers on one side positioned in the back of my room too.

Frank

 

[Jeff_D]

They typically do have a wood face. I like this idea, too...I have a couple of 3'x4'x8" gobos with poly diffusers on one side positioned in the back of my room too.

Frank

So, what if I did a gobo- one side is an arched piece of wood poly diffuser, the other side is fabric faced absorber? Good? Bad? Pointless?

 

[pandamonk]

Hi Pandamonk! Actually....I just used this to illustrate how Space Couplers are used. In reality, the "partition" wall would be between the studio and an usused space such as a large space above the studio...say if it had 20' high walls, or an adjacent space. In Jeffs case, it would all depend on his preferences. I only showed it like that because he already was recording without the benifit of an iso wall, and this might allow the control room to be the "larger" space. Frankly though, this is probably not correct, and I would actually suggest a solid wall with good TL. This was just to illustrate how they are used. Also, I'm sure the "secondary" room is calculated and treated to specs that make the "space coupler" work as designed. But like I said..."How and to what extent you could take advantage of this I don't know exactly, but it might be worth investigating. " I never said I KNOW how to use them correctly...if indeed they work...which if the world of Studio Design tells me anything...its BUYER BEWARE.


As a caveat, I've read these are one of those "proprietary" acoustical devices the patent holder uses in his "acoustical" designs. But just as other designers use ORD's, there are just as many that claim they are worthless, and swear by Polys instead. Pandamonk, you know I've kicked this acoustical "point of view" horse from here to eternity, on every forum that talks about this stuff. And I SWEAR, it still goes on.
See the continuing "debate" over small room diffusion here

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13591



In fact, this whole thing about "diffusers" has PISSED ME OFF!! These acousticians will NEVER NEVER NEVER pin things down in black and white. I've had acousticians tell me they would NEVER use QRD's. I've had some studio designers tell me FLAT OUT...they DON"T FUCKING WORK!!! And no sooner than I post these statements from them on a forum, a half dozen other ones proceed to tell me they are CRAZY!! They DO work....and then post all kinds of "scientific proof".

Let me give you a PERFECT example. Here is what one of the owners of READY TRAPS said in regards to QRD's...



That statement was from here...
http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3533&p=49208&hilit=corrugated#p49208

After I posted this statement at PROREC, I got a few replys from other studio designers/acousticians who, as usual, scoffed at this statement and then posted these links.
http://vimeo.com/7507997
http://vimeo.com/6461707


unfuckingbelievable. Good thing these guys arn't Surgeons. I bet they never worked on cars, or replaced a Septic tank either...which is a perfect analogy. Either it WORKS or it DOESN"T!! If it doesn't..then your up to your eyeballs in SHIT.

And "diffusers" arn't the only subject they "disagree" on. Theres splayed walls/ceilings vs rectangular rooms, vertical angle of monitors, flush mounting vs freestanding monitors, engineering position, etc etc etc..the list is too long to post. But just for the sake of proving my point...check this out.
http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/29004/0/

geeeezushfuckingchrist. I don't believe ANY of them anymore. In fact, here is the bottom line for me. I POINT BLANK asked Francis Manzella(who uses QRD's all the time)..."Once your design has been built, how do you
QUALIFY the design meets specified benchmarks. The answer was pretty much "a check from the client if his ears are happy."

Well, enough rant. Back to filling in my Septic Tank hole. At least "I" know....it WORKS!!

FitZ, I think that YOU should write a book on acoustics! Include all the opinions you can, that you have gathered over the years, and then give your own opinions based on the evidences presented. I would certainly buy it! I think your the go-to guy for any kind of acoustic question on this forum, especially for me.

I'm a very business-minded guy; every time I read your comments and debates with acoustic "experts", it makes me want to start my own acoustics company and get you involved! You inspire me and so many others so much and are one of the best assets of this forum.

Right I better go wipe my nose now.