Tusq vs Fossilized Mammoth Ivory Saddles

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You dont understand! I am 100% sure I have heard a significant improvement in my Martin HD-28. Not you nor anyone else will change that. Get that into your thick skull!
VP
No, YOU don't understand. No one here is trying to tell you that you don't hear it. If you hear it then it's real for you. Make your nuts out of bone, graphite, granite, or jello; I don't care. You say you hear an improvement. Good for you. Live long and prosper.

The problem is that you are trying to make the case for the presence of an objective difference with nothing but subjective ("I hear the difference" is purely subjective.), aka anecdotal, evidence to support you. I am, and I remain, skeptical.
 
No, YOU don't understand. No one here is trying to tell you that you don't hear it. If you hear it then it's real for you. Make your nuts out of bone, graphite, granite, or jello; I don't care. You say you hear an improvement. Good for you. Live long and prosper.

The problem is that you are trying to make the case for the presence of an objective difference with nothing but subjective ("I hear the difference" is purely subjective.), aka anecdotal, evidence to support you. I am, and I remain, skeptical.

That is fine with me, my guitars still sounds awesome.
VP
 
i think i found most of the answer to my question, and i found this too

The Myth of Bone: Spectral Sound Analysis Reveals True Tonal Properties

http://74.6.239.67/search/cache?ei=...y&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=Cww0K70c0enpNj9U5VZySw--

and also something about bone or elephant ivory being ok depending on but FMI's being better for guitars that are overly bright and brittle, like guitars made out of maple or those with a brand new Adirondack spruce top.

i'll try to post more of what i've found tomorrow or something
 
This brilliant individual!

Uh..."This brilliant individual" is still around. Look I'm no luthier, I'm just a guy that likes guitars. My original post was just an experiment nothing more. I prefer a hands on approach to learning so sometimes I try things you might think are stupid.

This is my latest experiment, I just strung it up for the first time yesterday. It's my first dread build finally nearing completion. Again I'm no luthier but I enjoy this stuff so take it easy pokin fun at me when I post stuff you think is dumb haha.

HERRINGBIRD009.jpg



HERRINGBIRD028.jpg
 
Uh..."This brilliant individual" is still around. Look I'm no luthier, I'm just a guy that likes guitars. My original post was just an experiment nothing more. I prefer a hands on approach to learning so sometimes I try things you might think are stupid.

This is my latest experiment, I just strung it up for the first time yesterday. It's my first dread build finally nearing completion. Again I'm no luthier but I enjoy this stuff so take it easy pokin fun at me when I post stuff you think is dumb haha.

I don't think he was poking fun at you.;)

VP can be a little tricky to understand sometimes but I think he was trying to use your post as a defence for some of the nonsense notions he posts here on a regular basis. He seemed to be of the opinion that many of us, myself specifically had hounded you off the board for pointing out some inaccuracies you may have posted in the past.

You may not consider yourself a luthier but if you built that guitar in the pictures and it's your first build then congratulations. It looks like a very nice instrument especially for a first build. If it's finished and playing give yourself a pat on the back and welcome to the luthiers club. I bet you'll find it hard to stop at just one.;)
 
Uh..."This brilliant individual" is still around. Look I'm no luthier, I'm just a guy that likes guitars. My original post was just an experiment nothing more. I prefer a hands on approach to learning so sometimes I try things you might think are stupid.

This is my latest experiment, I just strung it up for the first time yesterday. It's my first dread build finally nearing completion. Again I'm no luthier but I enjoy this stuff so take it easy pokin fun at me when I post stuff you think is dumb haha.

HERRINGBIRD009.jpg



HERRINGBIRD028.jpg

Hi, Glad to hear from you, I was not poking fun at all, I meant "brilliant Individual" literally. I have been posting about how great my Martins sound now that they both have bone nuts and saddles and ebony bridge pins. I have been reprimanded and "corrected" by certain people that it is all my imagination and it goes against physics. I was delighted to come across your post to see you had a similiar opinion. That guitar looks great, good job. So do you still feel the same about bone and other materials.
Thanks
VP
 
If it's finished and playing give yourself a pat on the back and welcome to the luthiers club. I bet you'll find it hard to stop at just one.;)

Its almost finished. I need to make the truss rod cover and put the pickguard on. I'm just enjoying it for a few days first. It actually plays really well and feels very similar to my j45 I took measurements from to make the neck. Tone wise I was shocked that it sounds as good as it does. It has a deeper tone than the j45 but I think the gibson still sounds better. I've logged a lot of miles on that gibson so I may be conditioned to prefer its tone but I dont think so. It's hard to describe but the j45 seems to have a punchy, clear, purer tone. However all my friends prefer the handmade dread so far but I really think just because its bassy they like that better. For me bassy isn't always better.

Oh...and yeah I'm already planning my next build. I'm thinking rosewood next.
 
i think i found most of the answer to my question, and i found this too

The Myth of Bone: Spectral Sound Analysis Reveals True Tonal Properties

http://74.6.239.67/search/cache?ei=...y&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=Cww0K70c0enpNj9U5VZySw--

and also something about bone or elephant ivory being ok depending on but FMI's being better for guitars that are overly bright and brittle, like guitars made out of maple or those with a brand new Adirondack spruce top.

i'll try to post more of what i've found tomorrow or something

Not to pour water on your noble attempt to provide some credible science to the subject of nut material discussed here and it it's effect on sound. I'd just like to add a few comments you may like to consider as you read and interpret that article.

1/ It discusses saddle material not nut material and the effect they claim it has on sound.

2/ it is documenting evidence to support a claim that tusq is superior to bone and the people investing in that possibility are concerned with the commercial benefit of selling tusq as opposed to bone. At best it can only ever be consider different as both work quite adequately.

3/ They make the correct statement that there is a simple fact involved in physics that in terms of energy you can get out only what you put in and that amplitude and sustain is a trade off. Increase one and you decrease the other. With a quick look look at the graphs that are included in the actual document you will see that they then go on to demonstrate how both amplitude and sustain are increased when using tusq. This is of course is impossible as they correctly stated. Either that or if it was the other way round and the results are to imply that the response is actually smoother and that the amplitude and sustain are decreased to accomplish this then once again it is a physical impossibility.

4/ If it was the case the only way that could happen is if energy from the string is lost in other ways. They also correctly identify the other ways in which energy can be lost in such an model, namely vibrational energy from the string itself to the air around it and impedance or internal impedance of the string and saddle. The result of which would result in quite a bit of heat being generated because energy has to go somewhere. They neglected to measure this but I for one have never noticed a bone saddle increasing in temperature as a result of string energy.

5/ Whilst I applaud their attempts to investigate this. I'm afraid there really isn't enough of their data published to accept their findings. If I had carried out that experiment I would have published details of the setup, the equipment used to measure the results, the results themselves and perhaps most importantly any possible phenomena that could and will influence the accuracy of any data gathered. That would include variances in the the setup between models, the sample size, the manner in which identical amounts of energy are imparted to the string, The sample size, the manner in which other factors will effect the results to do with the materials of the guitar itself, also any previous research they used to draw against and cite any references they would have used.

I would be interested to see a complete account of the study but I'm afraid at present point 2 is the most relevant in the published results.

Thanks again for your efforts to actually look into the physics of the subject I applaud it. Have a look at the pdf that shows the only results that publish though and I think you'll agree that it is a little sparse in both quantity and quality.

You can of course choose to accept the finding. VP undoubtedly will.;)
 
Its almost finished. I need to make the truss rod cover and put the pickguard on. I'm just enjoying it for a few days first. It actually plays really well and feels very similar to my j45 I took measurements from to make the neck. Tone wise I was shocked that it sounds as good as it does. It has a deeper tone than the j45 but I think the gibson still sounds better. I've logged a lot of miles on that gibson so I may be conditioned to prefer its tone but I dont think so. It's hard to describe but the j45 seems to have a punchy, clear, purer tone. However all my friends prefer the handmade dread so far but I really think just because its bassy they like that better. For me bassy isn't always better.

Oh...and yeah I'm already planning my next build. I'm thinking rosewood next.

Good stuff. After all these years and many many instrument under my belt I still get a buzz of anticipation every time I string a guitar up for the first time. I think that has to do with the anticipation. A bit like when you first let you kids ride a bike of take them to school, or send them off to college. You worry but when it turns out right you get an immense sense of satisfaction and pride.

Good luck with the next build and share it here if you have the time. I'm sure many would be interested and be able to offer encouragement even if they can't add support or help.

Good luck with it.
 
What is "depth" of sound?

a certain frequency range that can be effected by many particles?

although to me the best sounding depth isn't muddy and retains crispy pure highs at the same time

i thought there was a dramatic difference between the 2 examples the op shared, yet i still thought both were lacking, not to mention that the sound wanted can be relative to the what someone needs or wants

but if your looking for a 'richer' sound the tusq was obviously better, i thought it could be very much possible that it resulted from other factors, however what stood out to me was that there was a major obvious change on the guitar, tusq, and then a major obvious change to its sound quality

then after looking into to it more, other professionals tend to agree, (although sometimes in relation to the guitars material itself) with scientific proof to back it up
 
a certain frequency range that can be effected by many particles?

although to me the best sounding depth isn't muddy and retains crispy pure highs at the same time

i thought there was a dramatic difference between the 2 examples the op shared, yet i still thought both were lacking, not to mention that the sound wanted can be relative to the what someone needs or wants

but if your looking for a 'richer' sound the tusq was obviously better, i thought it could be very much possible that it resulted from other factors, however what stood out to me was that there was a major obvious change on the guitar, tusq, and then a major obvious change to its sound quality

then after looking into to it more, other professionals tend to agree, (although sometimes in relation to the guitars material itself) with scientific proof to back it up

I'm sure VP would make sense of that. I can't.
 
Not to pour water on your noble attempt to provide some credible science to the subject of nut material discussed here and it it's effect on sound. I'd just like to add a few comments you may like to consider as you read and interpret that article.

1/ It discusses saddle material not nut material and the effect they claim it has on sound.

2/ it is documenting evidence to support a claim that tusq is superior to bone and the people investing in that possibility are concerned with the commercial benefit of selling tusq as opposed to bone.

You could have stopped right there.
 
So do you still feel the same about bone and other materials.
Thanks
VP

Well for me the jury is still out. I suspect the material plays a role (hence the original experiment) and a difference can be heard in the recordings I made. It's subtle but its there. There is no doubt the tusq has a muddier, bassier quality while the ivory has more clarity, less bass and not muddy at all. I had both saddles swapped in and out many times over a couple of days and I could clearly hear they sounded different so I decided to record both. I should note all my buddies prefer the tusq while only I prefer the fossilized ivory. But this was only one experiment on one guitar with just two materials. Thats why I said listen if want and make your own conclusions. No big deal.

That said a previous poster mentions cut and fit and I'm certain these factors do effect tone. I'm sure poorly cut nuts and saddles (string slot sizes, shape, height) change tone but I'm still trying to figure it all out myself.
 
Not to pour water on your noble attempt to provide some credible science to the subject of nut material discussed here and it it's effect on sound. I'd just like to add a few comments you may like to consider as you read and interpret that article.

1/ It discusses saddle material not nut material and the effect they claim it has on sound.

2/ it is documenting evidence to support a claim that tusq is superior to bone and the people investing in that possibility are concerned with the commercial benefit of selling tusq as opposed to bone. At best it can only ever be consider different as both work quite adequately.

3/ They make the correct statement that there is a simple fact involved in physics that in terms of energy you can get out only what you put in and that amplitude and sustain is a trade off. Increase one and you decrease the other. With a quick look look at the graphs that are included in the actual document you will see that they then go on to demonstrate how both amplitude and sustain are increased when using tusq. This is of course is impossible as they correctly stated. Either that or if it was the other way round and the results are to imply that the response is actually smoother and that the amplitude and sustain are decreased to accomplish this then once again it is a physical impossibility.

4/ If it was the case the only way that could happen is if energy from the string is lost in other ways. They also correctly identify the other ways in which energy can be lost in such an model, namely vibrational energy from the string itself to the air around it and impedance or internal impedance of the string and saddle. The result of which would result in quite a bit of heat being generated because energy has to go somewhere. They neglected to measure this but I for one have never noticed a bone saddle increasing in temperature as a result of string energy.

5/ Whilst I applaud their attempts to investigate this. I'm afraid there really isn't enough of their data published to accept their findings. If I had carried out that experiment I would have published details of the setup, the equipment used to measure the results, the results themselves and perhaps most importantly any possible phenomena that could and will influence the accuracy of any data gathered. That would include variances in the the setup between models, the sample size, the manner in which identical amounts of energy are imparted to the string, The sample size, the manner in which other factors will effect the results to do with the materials of the guitar itself, also any previous research they used to draw against and cite any references they would have used.

I would be interested to see a complete account of the study but I'm afraid at present point 2 is the most relevant in the published results.

Thanks again for your efforts to actually look into the physics of the subject I applaud it. Have a look at the pdf that shows the only results that publish though and I think you'll agree that it is a little sparse in both quantity and quality.

You can of course choose to accept the finding. VP undoubtedly will.;)


hold on mutts/butts somehow missed this post brb:)
 
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