Har-Bal download anyone?

[flatfinger]

hey flatfinger, you gonna Bogart that big honkin' spliff? . Man, what a wild post! (the actual gist of which I agree with, BTW )

Wait till I post stone cold sober ;

If you haven't got the ear to EQ something manually and not need something like a hairball, how can you possibly have the ear to know if/when you or your software actually does hit the jackpot? And conversely, if you do have the ear to know, then why in God's name would you want to waste your time yanking the one armed bandit of something like hairball?

Chickens and eggs ; which crossed the road first ??

I think allot of laymen can tell when something sounds extraordinary, I mean that's why I kept buying all those steely dan records back when a A four-track mini studio cost so much that I did'nt dream I could afford one . I still knew which records made the hair stand up on the back of my neck. ( as opposed to "hair balling!)

I think it takes a tremendous, way underappreciated amount of time an effort to be trully skilled on the "otherside of the speaker". I'm with you;................ the Idea of a slot machine " sound helper" is ludirus.....Did'nt I point out from the start that it was a weak analogy ??? I saw a gentleman start a thread the other day (elsewhere) asking where he could find more pre-sets for Izotope Ozone !!!!! Even eliminating the module order , the mind still boggles at the infinitesimal chances of all those variables aligning to the source material.

In another thread a member asks if it's strange that he doesn't EQ his guitar tracks. What's strange to me is that that question even needs to be asked. It's only strange to skip EQ if your tracks will benefit from it's use. How else can you answer that question? What nobody wants to ever come out and say is that if you have to ask if a track needs EQ, you shouldn't be doing the mixing

I don't know .... I always felt sorry for the few odd teachers or instructors in the classroom situations I've been who insisted on maintaining the "no question is a stupid question " rule in effect . Inevitably some laggart is going to have you re-explain chapter one concepts whilst your busy lecturing on chapter ten !!

Im kinda hungry, so it's time for another one of my patented (US Patent #12744978) cooking analogies. If you can't tell what tastes "right" and what doesn't, you shouldn't be cooking.

G.

You do have to crack a few eggs before you can make an omelete.



I"m not privy to the sincerity levels of software devs ( nor anyway to verify them ) ; But I do think those dsp geeks mean well . It's up to the individual to survey the scene and try to focus on genuine techniques .

I know that when you were coming up , ( resisting the temptation to make references to the jurassic era!!!! Cause that's me too !! ) there were less whiz bang amazing computer thingy distractions , so you pretty much had to sit there sweeping away with your ( THANKFULLY ANALOG) eq and if you did'nt train your ear , you were'nt getting into any studio for long. ( and no , you could'nt play enginner at home in your free time either !)

I have Hugnormus respect for the crumudgeny A.E.'s out there , but I like some of the new technology that's afoot these days too.( poor me ,; I missed out on fooling with tape deck repair and maintenance)

So I guess the newbs ( like me still , cause I know that there's lot's I don't know !!) are going to potentially have allot more distractions and potential blind allies to go up. I guess I'm just expressing MY opinion That HB was'nt the worst thing thats ever happend to me .

I was just trying to avoid the usual trainwreck on the subject of HB and say something positive ; It's not the first dsp thingy I'd be hoping to get my cabbage back on .( let's face it , as you're suggesting , there can be some real doosies out there)

But you are right . Better to concentrate on the tried and true , old school methodology and ignore much of the new fangled toys that are fraught with shiny distractions .(One exception of course for the RTA in WL ,zoomed to occupy the whole 2nd monitor!!!All those pretty colors...get's em every time !!)



Thanks for your web based resources and wisdom sharing activites. Just remember , for newbs and not as newbs like myself , the old adage could never be truer....... You can lead a wannabe A.E. to water ...BUT.............




Cheers

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

But that's exactly what I don't get, finger; since when is having to have an ear for music "old school"? If anything, as the music styles mix and expand thanks to the global village we call the Inter-thingy, having that ear is probably more basic and important than ever.

Technology does not change the basics; technology has not made it so that a chef can cook without tastebuds (at least not well), or a running back run without "field awareness" (at least not well). And technology does not replace the need for a mix engineer to have "the ears" for it either.

I'm not saying that one should know the techniques right off the bat, that's unrealistic. Which is why these BBS are here...or at least should be; to help teach technique on *how* to do something. But for me personally, if someone needs to ask not how to do something, but what even needs to be done, there's nothing I (or anyone else) can do to help them.

G.

 

[flatfinger]

Always a pleasure to listen to your views .

I guess that the "gatekeeping " that was removed from the talent side ( from the viewpoint that it took someone to provide the venture capital before you got into the same zipcode as a recording studio) is also removed now from the engineering side .....Not making any value judgments on those developments ; Just that were in undiscoverd country here, so who knows what will become of it all .

So many trade schools. So many "placement " promises.

A very different world out there today . Would'nt want to be just starting out in anything right now . Except maybe software!!



Cheers

 

[dobro]

hey How else can you answer that question? What nobody wants to ever come out and say is that if you have to ask if a track needs EQ, you shouldn't be doing the mixing.

Or maybe you're learning how to mix. That's a valid activity, learning how to do something. I think it was you in an earlier post in either this thread or another one who said something like, regarding mixing: "there are those who get it, and those who don't". Well, whether it was you or somebody else who said, it was a two-dimensional comment. There are also those who are learning how to do it.

I'm kinda hungry, so it's time for another one of my patented (US Patent #12744978) cooking analogies. If you can't tell what tastes "right" and what doesn't, you shouldn't be cooking.

You can patent it, but don't expect to make a ton of money off it. People who enjoy mixing their own stuff and who are learning to do it better as time passes know you're just showing off.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

A very different world out there today . Would'nt want to be just starting out in anything right now . Except maybe software!!

As a long time software developer, I'd say be careful about what you wish for...or at least have a very well-funded VC sugar daddy watching your back . Otherwise it's next to impossible to compete for very long against the whole "open source" debacle.

Or maybe you're learning how to mix. That's a valid activity, learning how to do something. I think it was you in an earlier post in either this thread or another one who said something like, regarding mixing: "there are those who get it, and those who don't". Well, whether it was you or somebody else who said, it was a two-dimensional comment. There are also those who are learning how to do it.

First off, that wasn't me who said that...though I admit I easily could have. And there's nothing two dimensional about it when one understands it's true meaning, or at least actually read what the entire posts say.

*Of course* people need to learn how to mix. I just got through saying that it's unrealistic to expect otherwise, and that that's what these BBSs are for helping with. But before one learns how to mix, they had better know - as a prerequisite to the task - *what* to mix. You can't learn how to make something sound good if you don't know what "sound good" actually means, or can't identify why something sounds bad.

It's simple; if one needs to ask someone else whether something sounds good or not, they have no business being behind the mixing desk.

Real life is neither anarchy nor democracy. There is no such thing as a level paying field. Get over it. Certain avocations and vocations require certain inherent basic skills You can't be a baseball player if you throw like Mariah Carey, just like you can't be a singer if you sing like Carlos Zambrano. And you can't mix music if your ears can't tell you what needs mixing.

Can that be learned? For some, yes. For those, once they're learned, *then* and only then should they try to learn the *how* of mixing, because it's impossible to learn how to mix otherwise.

That's not anybody showing off; that's just someone telling the hard truth that folks who feel they were born with a sense of entitlement simply don't want to hear.

G.

 

[dobro]

As a long time software developer, I'd say be careful about what you wish for...or at least have a very well-funded VC sugar daddy watching your back . Otherwise it's next to impossible to compete for very long against the whole "open source" debacle.

First off, that wasn't me who said that...though I admit I easily could have. And there's nothing two dimensional about it when one understands it's true meaning, or at least actually read what the entire posts say.

*Of course* people need to learn how to mix. I just got through saying that it's unrealistic to expect otherwise, and that that's what these BBSs are for helping with. But before one learns how to mix, they had better know - as a prerequisite to the task - *what* to mix. You can't learn how to make something sound good if you don't know what "sound good" actually means, or can't identify why something sounds bad.

It's simple; if one needs to ask someone else whether something sounds good or not, they have no business being behind the mixing desk.

Real life is neither anarchy nor democracy. There is no such thing as a level paying field. Get over it. Certain avocations and vocations require certain inherent basic skills You can't be a baseball player if you throw like Mariah Carey, just like you can't be a singer if you sing like Carlos Zambrano. And you can't mix music if your ears can't tell you what needs mixing.

Can that be learned? For some, yes. For those, once they're learned, *then* and only then should they try to learn the *how* of mixing, because it's impossible to learn how to mix otherwise.

That's not anybody showing off; that's just someone telling the hard truth that folks who feel they were born with a sense of entitlement simply don't want to hear.

G.

Even if you were right (and I disagree with your black and white assessment of what is essentially a learning scale), I still wouldn't avail myself of your professional services cuz I don't support those who position themselves on the clever ground and look down on others. It ain't professional.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Even if you were right (and I disagree with your black and white assessment of what is essentially a learning scale), I still wouldn't avail myself of your professional services cuz I don't support those who position themselves on the clever ground and look down on others. It ain't professional.

In other words, if the phone doesn't ring I'll know it's you?

Not a problem; my phone and my e-mail are kept busy by folks who do get it.

BTW, stating facts is not "looking down" on anybody. It's simply stating facts. If you feel looked down upon because of that then perhaps you need to work on either your skill set or your self-esteem, because you're reading something into it that just isn't there.

It's simple; if one needs to ask someone else whether something sounds good or not, they have no business being behind the mixing desk.

There's no learning curve there. OK, perhaps there's a leaning curve in the critical listening/music appreciation end of it. And it's one which continuously develops as well - I'm still learning stuff every day. But mixing requires two things AS MINIMUM PREREQUISITES: the ability to trust one's own ears and tastes, and the ability to use ones own ears and tastes to determine if what they hear is what they want, and if it's not, how if differs from what they want.

Once again, it's quite simple: if one cannot do that yet, then they are like a blind man trying to judge a painting or a man with no taste buds trying to tell if their food tastes right. That's not judgmental, that's FACT.

It's also true that the two skills - listening and mixing - cannot be developed at the same time. One cannot mix until they can hear, therefore one cannot learn to mix before they have already learned to hear. It's necessarily a sequential process.

What does all this have to do with hair ball? Absolutely nothing. That's because har ball has absolutely nothing to do with reality.

If you are going to get pissed at folks like me, dobro, for laying out the truth, you have a long future of anger and unhappiness in front of you.The sooner you cowboy up and accept that this requires dedication and work and, yes, a basic starting skillset before you can pass Go and collect $200, the happier you'll be.

G.

 

[dobro]

In other words, if the phone doesn't ring I'll know it's you?

Exactly, and I'm glad you're cool with it, cuz I ain't bothered either. For one thing, I don't know you so you know it's not personal. For another thing, none of your customers are going to read this thread, and even if they do, who's gonna listen to me? lol

Not a problem; my phone and my e-mail are kept busy by folks who do get it.

Get what? Your point of view? Maybe they just recognize the value of your mixing chops. That doesn't mean they agree with your stance on this issue.

BTW, stating facts is not "looking down" on anybody. It's simply stating facts. If you feel looked down upon because of that then perhaps you need to work on either your skill set or your self-esteem, because you're reading something into it that just isn't there.

You're not stating facts. You're oversimplifying, doing that 'it's all so simple and black and white' thing that oversimplifiers do. Look, you said in a previous post here:

It *ALL* boils down to this, IMHO (and by ALL I mean basically this entire BBS)} either one is cut out to engineer music or they are not.

I'll argue this with you, cuz like I said before, it's a learning curve. I'm hearing stuff in my mixes these days that I wasn't hearing three years ago, and when I go back and listen to stuff I was doing nine years ago, it makes me wince. ("What the fuck was I doing tracking that hot and then squashing it with a compressor going in?")

It's simple; if one needs to ask someone else whether something sounds good or not, they have no business being behind the mixing desk.

Well, if enough people believe that, it's good for your kinda business, yeah, granted.

There's no learning curve there. OK, perhaps there's a leaning curve in the critical listening/music appreciation end of it. And it's one which continuously develops as well - I'm still learning stuff every day. But mixing requires two things AS MINIMUM PREREQUISITES: the ability to trust one's own ears and tastes, and the ability to use ones own ears and tastes to determine if what they hear is what they want, and if it's not, how if differs from what they want.

You know what I think about the learning curve thing. I'll add this: by comparing my impressions of my mixes with other people's impressions of my mixes, I learn. My ear's better now. Comparing notes with other people helped me get here. I'm really grateful to them, and I'm really respectful of the process.

If you are going to get pissed at folks like me, dobro, for laying out the truth, you have a long future of anger and unhappiness in front of you.The sooner you cowboy up and accept that this requires dedication and work and, yes, a basic starting skillset before you can pass Go and collect $200, the happier you'll be.

G.

Don't preach. You might even be able to learn something from lowlifes like me.

Finally, I really enjoyed what you said about the hairball - your stuff is a fun read. After reading what you and Massive said about it, I'd never buy one.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

If you're going to preach to me about my attitude, don't get on my case for what you see as preaching.

One thing I've recently learned is that I am tired of arguing in forums. Believe what you wish, whatever gets you though the day.

G.

 

[flatfinger]

I think that allot of long time A.E.'s have a right to have there back up a little these days . There is a flood a of dilettantes who think that this stuff is easy .
The technology has made it more accessible and affordable, but it is folly to think that experience still is'nt the best teacher.
My feeling is that this buisness of getting musical performances into a frozen time capsule so to speak has many ,many aspects .
It is unfortunate that the circumstances of the world have thrown the whole process into disarray.There are allot of newbs , and as usual , there are lots of class clowns within the crop.

I can't fault the basic logic behind Glens assertion that some modicum of raw talent needs to be there. However, although It's generally agreed that you can't play linebacker in the NFL if you don't have the size , speed and athletisism; there are those who have these attributes in spades, but lack the proper work ethic to properly apply them.
There are those who get it done with grit and determination when everyone else said they could'nt. Obviously , since glen might say I'm Imbibing for using such an analogy , let me say that the professions of pro football player and pro Audio Engineer are'nt even close ..... But I would assert that it's probably easier to rise above the odds against the difficulty curve in the audio profession.
You don't have as short window and you can afford to make more mistakes.


I would say that Dobro has already displayed what it takes in allmost every endeavor... not letting anyone tell you can't do it : determination! ( and I'm not saying glen specifically told dobro he was'nt able to do this .)

You just need to realize that it probably is'nt going to be easy ( most things in life are'nt , even for those born with the proverbial silver spoon ... just a different set of issues sometimes )
So always look to learn , learn from your mistakes , study , then study somemore . Read a f'ing book instead of wasting time on these forums ( like I'm doing .....do as I say , not as I do !!!






Cheers

 

[dobro]

Book suggestions?

 

[masteringhouse]

Remember this post? It should go down as one of "the best of HR":

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=230571

 

[bunt]

=flatfinger;3254249]It is unfortunate that the circumstances of the world have thrown the whole process into disarray.There are allot of newbs , and as usual , there are lots of class clowns within the crop.

Jeez... speaking as a "newb" I'll say this about that...
I was neither insulted nor discouraged by any of Glen's comments.
He provides excellent tips & insight along with his opinions and philosophies on many things. Both Glen and John Script are pretty consistent in saying "do what your ears tell you to do". I think maybe Glen is just saying that if your ears are telling you nothing, how can you do anything? (in this business). I also see him and you interjecting plenty of humor into these posts, which I think is great, but I don't consider either of you to be clowns.

Your quote above seems judgemental and dismissive. Like new people are a pain in your ass, and that somehow these new people are responsible for "the circumstances of the world"?? We new people aren't a crop, dude... corn is a crop. We're hardly in class and I don't see anybody wearing bright red rubber noses. By the way, where did you earn your professorship and why do you think change is tantamount to "disarray"?

I also think the moderator was just doing his job and being a kind of a dad for the new people who may not yet know that they are... or are not cut out for mixing. Most of the people I see in here aren't looking to make their careers in the record biz... they're just having fun making music and would like to record some of it for postherity or whatever. That, in no way says that they don't want to sound better with each attempt. It's totally wonderful that advanced technology has allowed affordable gear for all forms of making and recording music. Blogs are a nice convenient way to exchange personal experiences and oftentimes get helpful info in return.

I'd be extremely disappointed if Glen or the other pros in here stopped defending their principles.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I think maybe Glen is just saying that if your ears are telling you nothing, how can you do anything?

Thank you, bunt, for being the only person in this thread so far who apparently has the reading comprehension skills to come close to understanding what I'm (and others) saying and not complety misconstruing the point.

Dobro misses it completely when he doesn't catch that the reason his mixes from nine years ago make him wince today is that nine years ago he wasn't ready to mix. Not because of a lack of mixing skills, which is perfectly understandable - one has to get in front of a mixing station to learn that stuff; I don't know how many times I have to repeat that dead horse and state that is NOT what I'm talking about - but because he did not yet have the ears to realize that what he was doing was wince-inducing.

Some people can spend a lifetime in front of a mixing station and NEVER have the ears to make a decent mix. Others are born with the ability. Most of us are somewhere in-between.

The point and the problem is, one has to come before the other; the ears have to come first. I'm not talking about someone just diddling around with a new fun hobby, making something just for their family and friends to have fun with.

I'm talking about the hundreds and hundreds of sincere folks who come on here and say something along the lines of, "I'm [mixing/producing] [myself/an artist/a band] for the purpose of making a demo for release on [CD/meSpace/radio]. Can you tell me if this sounds any good?"

My answer is (assuming you're just just trying to coyly advertise your product by pretending to look for advice, or simply trying to get someone to stroke your ego), "If one needs someone else to tell them if it sounds any good or not, then what is the PURPOSE of them even doing the mixing?" If one hasn't an idea of what needs mixing and what doesn't, then why are they even there?

We're making art here. We're supposed to be engineering a vision to life. Without that vision, without that purpose, then why even do it at all?

And before anybody answers "to get laid" or "to make money", there are a lot better ways to do that then to be mucking around with this stuff.

G.

 

[dobro]

Dobro misses it completely when he doesn't catch that the reason his mixes from nine years ago make him wince today is that nine years ago he wasn't ready to mix. Not because of a lack of mixing skills, which is perfectly understandable - one has to get in front of a mixing station to learn that stuff; I don't know how many times I have to repeat that dead horse and state that is NOT what I'm talking about - but because he did not yet have the ears to realize that what he was doing was wince-inducing.

Some people can spend a lifetime in front of a mixing station and NEVER have the ears to make a decent mix. Others are born with the ability. Most of us are somewhere in-between.

Thank you for not letting go, because it gives me an opportunity to learn something possibly, if you're agreeable.

Here's the deal: I put a mix up in the mp3 clinic. You listen to it and comment on it. Simple. No need to be suspicious, because it's a win/win situation: you get to point out how my mix demonstrates how I never should have been allowed behind a mixing desk, and I get to learn something and improve my listening skills. Win/win. What do you say?

I also promise, in return, never to ask you to post one of your mixes.

Up for it?

 

[flatfinger]

Jeez... speaking as a "newb" I'll say this about that...
I was neither insulted nor discouraged by any of Glen's comments.
He provides excellent tips & insight along with his opinions and philosophies on many things. Both Glen and John Script are pretty consistent in saying "do what your ears tell you to do". I think maybe Glen is just saying that if your ears are telling you nothing, how can you do anything? (in this business). I also see him and you interjecting plenty of humor into these posts, which I think is great, but I don't consider either of you to be clowns.

I was'nt trying to bust glenns balls ; ( that's Impossible , there made of steel!)

No doubt ; there are some wondefully generous guys in the industry, and they are a treasure indeed. Not at all sure why they put up with some of the stuff they do .

I guess there is more than one definition for class clown.
There is a big difference between interjecting some humor from time to time during the discussion and just being a singularly low acheiver who holds everyone back by being constantly behind on the subject matter that is being discussed . ( I gave an illustration about questions about chp.1 during a chp 10 lecture .)

Your quote above seems judgemental and dismissive.

Not sure that it's judgmental and dismissve??..... seems.....

It was just an opinion , If you have some kind of counter argument feel free to offer it up . Wide and sweeping generalizations like "Judgmental and dismissive" really don't offer a whole lot to the discussion really .

Like new people are a pain in your ass, and that somehow these new people are responsible for "the circumstances of the world"??

I did'nt say "new people" , I said

a flood a of dilettantes who think that this stuff is easy

Like a guy I previously mentioned ; asking for more presets for Izotopes Ozone . I think that was being a pain in the ass.

We new people aren't a crop, dude... corn is a crop.

it's just a figure of speech , sorry if you decide to take it upon yourself to be offended by a simple figure of speech. I take it your Identifing with a group you consider yourself to be apart of , and that I'm somehow attacking ........ I'm not besmirching a whole group .. Only the slackers amoungst the group ;.... get it ??

We're hardly in class and I don't see anybody wearing bright red rubber noses. By the way, where did you earn your professorship and why do you think change is tantamount to "disarray"?

How do you know that I'm not, at this very moment wearing a red rubber nose ??

I make no claim to hold a teaching post at any luniversity. I'm just a bunch of electrons on your LCD .. If you feel that my arguments have no merit , than feel free to Ignore them . .....I'll get over it; really.

I also have nothing against change . The only certianty in life is change and it can't be avoided .

I just think it needs to be done in a more orderly fashion !!! ( hey , I can dream can't I ?? )

I'd be extremely disappointed if Glen or the other pros in here stopped defending their principles.

I agree!







.

 

[kcearl]

well Im just plain surprised that's all...it's a big surprise

 

[flatfinger]

Book suggestions?

Well here's some stuff for when you getting a LCD tan.....


http://www.moultonlabs.com/


http://www.soundonsound.com/articles/Technique.php




Cheers

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Here's the deal: I put a mix up in the mp3 clinic. You listen to it and comment on it.

That's just it, dob, my comments on yours or anybody else's mixes are irrelevant. Far more illuminating, educational, and useful for everybody all around are what YOUR comments are on your own mix.

I couldn't give a shit what your mixes sound like, and I don't give a shit what anybody here thinks of my mixes or my refusal to play your game with them either.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, you heartless asshole, but my mother has not yet died. So take your act an play it somewhere else, because now that you've shown your true colors, the more you ask, the more it will please me to say no.

G.

 

[bunt]

well, flatfinger, I can't say I didn't see that coming...


Anywayz, it's all worth it to see this:

I'm talking about the hundreds and hundreds of sincere folks who come on here and say something along the lines of, "I'm [mixing/producing] [myself/an artist/a band] for the purpose of making a demo for release on [CD/meSpace/radio]. Can you tell me if this sounds any good?"

Good stuff