Rimshot
New member
A 9 year old thread.................. DAMN! Where'd you find it? My beard wasn't even gray yet when this thread was started!
ranjam
New member
So? Keep it going!
Got a can of worms you want me to open? Drummer jokes weren't 'invented'. They're true! Insert drummer joke here. Look, I play pretty much every instrument, and currently play in three different bands, playing three different instruments. What do I notice about 'less than top notch' drummers when I am playing say bass? If they are at all unfamilar with the song, they look like a deer in the headlights. They have no other musical training, so they cannot tell when a bridge or chorus is coming up. So why expect them to relate to pitch and tuning their drums? It ain't gonna happen. You can tune your drums to accurate pitches. And it can relate to your band and the music you play. Some jazz drummer, whose name escapes me right now, said he tunes his drums so a snare/rack tom/floor tom drag plays the first three notes from A Love Supreme. Makes sense to me. When I sit in on other people's kits, the snare is either like playing a bowl of pudding or it sounds like I'm hitting a tea kettle. It's all a matter of taste, but I still insist you can tune to pitches and match the music you are playing.
Oh, and as an aside; I rough tune with a Drum Dial, and fine tune by ear. I have no idea who The Tuning Bible is, but he is flat out wrong. If you have lugs that feel loose compared to others after tuning to a tension, you are tuning your drum improperly. Plain and simple.
R
RAMI
Guest
Verbal diarrhea at it's finest.So? Keep it going!
When I sit in on other people's kits, the snare is either like playing a bowl of pudding or it sounds like I'm hitting a tea kettle. It's all a matter of taste, but I still insist you can tune to pitches and match the music you are playing.
Oh, and as an aside; I rough tune with a Drum Dial, and fine tune by ear. I have no idea who The Tuning Bible is, but he is flat out wrong. If you have lugs that feel loose compared to others after tuning to a tension, you are tuning your drum improperly. Plain and simple.
Rimshot
New member
ranjam
New member
The truly ignorant either a) ridicule, or b) fear what they just don't comprehend. Plain and simple. Rather than prove how ignorant you are with school yard remarks, why not share your vast knowledge and educate me? Or is it too dificult to share what is in shamefully short supply? I'll take the bait once, but after this, if there isn't any common sense sharing of information...................
R
RAMI
Guest
Once again.......
Ninja_Drummer
New member
Well being a drummer myself, I'm just in awe of much flak goes toward a drummer in this thread. Insulted really. Drummers are pretty independent with what they do. For us, there really isn't a wrong way to do something.
There are 3 major methods of tuning drums.
1) Tune the top head (batter) lower than the bottom head (resonant). This is the more popular tuning among drummers in rock and punk and hip hop etc.
This achieves the punchy sound.
2) Tune the top head equal to the bottom head This usually achieves a more open sound.
3)Tune top head higher than bottom head. This is more popular among jazz drummers. Again, this method achieves a more open, resonant sound, more particular in bass drums and toms.
Just like the others said, tuning drums is fairly difficult, so to go and call a drummer a "dumbass" for tuning drums the way he/she wants it is just being ignorant. First off all, You got two different tones to deal with. 1, the top head, and 2, the bottom head. The top head head alone produces a note of its own, and the bottom head likewise. And blending the two together only adds in to the difficulty of the drums.
In the world of "tuning" for drummers, we all tune in intervals, most usually. When Depicting the distance in tone of the top head and the bottom head, most drummers like to tune it in a 3rd interval. While some like 5ths, and some even 4ths.
This also goes for depicting the distance between different sized toms. In a situation where there are only 3 toms, the rack toms, or first two smallest are distanced in notes by a 3rd interval, then, from the 2nd to the 3rd tom, the largest, it would usually be distanced by a 5th interval.
in situations where there are 4 or more toms, all the toms would be distanced by 3rd intervals. You see, toms are like chords, believe it or not for those of you thinking that we drummers are just dumbshits and don't know anything about notes. In chords, if you have 2 notes, then you have a wide range of intervals to deal with. But as you add more notes, the intervals became smaller and smaller, similar to how if you add more marbles to a jar the space empty volume becomes less and less.
Also, in addition to the "drummers don't know anything with tuning by ear", drummers do, in fact, tune their toms to songs or familiar scales alike. Some drummers tune their toms to the "Wedding March", "Mary had a Little Lamb", or some other little tune such as that.
As for snare drums and kick drums, obviously it'll be hard to get a note out of a snare, and obviously NEVER should obtain a note out of a kick drum, call it dumbshit or not, its a no no, and if you have any objections, try recording a kick drum tuned to something like F then mix that in with the different tones of the guitars, vocals, bass guitar, keyboard, toms, snare, effects. Won't get it to stand out much right? Yeah, don't need much to think about that.
SO generally drummers would tune snares and kicks bassed on the effect they desire, If you want a tight resonant sound, you use the 1st method for drum tuning. If you want a resonant sound, either 2 or 3, a phat sound, or thick, then maybe 3.
So calling drummers stupid, idiotic, don't know how to tune is only showing your own amount of knowledge about it. IT IS in fact, hard to tune drums properly, if it ever existed. Drummers tune the way THEY want it. I would think that it be up to them on how they want to record it in the first place. I mean, that is what they're paying to record for right? To record them, NOT give them a tutorial on how to tune drums?
I can understand that some younger drummers or less experienced don't know the lines of how to get a "relative tone" out of their toms or whatever, but that's a skill that is mastered as they mature. It isn't something learned right on the spot. I mean, you wouldn't learn how to operate a rocket in 30 min would you?
There are 3 major methods of tuning drums.
1) Tune the top head (batter) lower than the bottom head (resonant). This is the more popular tuning among drummers in rock and punk and hip hop etc.
This achieves the punchy sound.
2) Tune the top head equal to the bottom head This usually achieves a more open sound.
3)Tune top head higher than bottom head. This is more popular among jazz drummers. Again, this method achieves a more open, resonant sound, more particular in bass drums and toms.
Just like the others said, tuning drums is fairly difficult, so to go and call a drummer a "dumbass" for tuning drums the way he/she wants it is just being ignorant. First off all, You got two different tones to deal with. 1, the top head, and 2, the bottom head. The top head head alone produces a note of its own, and the bottom head likewise. And blending the two together only adds in to the difficulty of the drums.
In the world of "tuning" for drummers, we all tune in intervals, most usually. When Depicting the distance in tone of the top head and the bottom head, most drummers like to tune it in a 3rd interval. While some like 5ths, and some even 4ths.
This also goes for depicting the distance between different sized toms. In a situation where there are only 3 toms, the rack toms, or first two smallest are distanced in notes by a 3rd interval, then, from the 2nd to the 3rd tom, the largest, it would usually be distanced by a 5th interval.
in situations where there are 4 or more toms, all the toms would be distanced by 3rd intervals. You see, toms are like chords, believe it or not for those of you thinking that we drummers are just dumbshits and don't know anything about notes. In chords, if you have 2 notes, then you have a wide range of intervals to deal with. But as you add more notes, the intervals became smaller and smaller, similar to how if you add more marbles to a jar the space empty volume becomes less and less.
Also, in addition to the "drummers don't know anything with tuning by ear", drummers do, in fact, tune their toms to songs or familiar scales alike. Some drummers tune their toms to the "Wedding March", "Mary had a Little Lamb", or some other little tune such as that.
As for snare drums and kick drums, obviously it'll be hard to get a note out of a snare, and obviously NEVER should obtain a note out of a kick drum, call it dumbshit or not, its a no no, and if you have any objections, try recording a kick drum tuned to something like F then mix that in with the different tones of the guitars, vocals, bass guitar, keyboard, toms, snare, effects. Won't get it to stand out much right? Yeah, don't need much to think about that.
SO generally drummers would tune snares and kicks bassed on the effect they desire, If you want a tight resonant sound, you use the 1st method for drum tuning. If you want a resonant sound, either 2 or 3, a phat sound, or thick, then maybe 3.
So calling drummers stupid, idiotic, don't know how to tune is only showing your own amount of knowledge about it. IT IS in fact, hard to tune drums properly, if it ever existed. Drummers tune the way THEY want it. I would think that it be up to them on how they want to record it in the first place. I mean, that is what they're paying to record for right? To record them, NOT give them a tutorial on how to tune drums?
I can understand that some younger drummers or less experienced don't know the lines of how to get a "relative tone" out of their toms or whatever, but that's a skill that is mastered as they mature. It isn't something learned right on the spot. I mean, you wouldn't learn how to operate a rocket in 30 min would you?
ranjam
New member
Tuning drums is not difficult. Tuning drums so they sound musical and fit well into the sonic spectrum of who else you are playing with is difficult. That takes experience, and a lot of trial-and-error. I would never, and don't believe I ever did, call any drummer 'dumbass' just for the way he tunes his drums or 'stupid' if he didn't know how. My attitude is if a drummer has no other instrument training, and doesn't understand musical tones or pitches, nor does understand terms like bridge, chorus, etc., then I cannot honestly expect him to understand tuning his drums to a pitch. It won't happen. And those drummers also usually have trouble playing the song if they are unfamiliar with it. They are what I call pattern drummers. They'll play beats. I don't know how to explain it, but I recognize them after a few bars. That's not meant as a slight, but an observation. It still takes talent to play a simple 4/4 beat for four or five minutes without wavering.
But if you don't understand intervals.....
That's why I said I remember one jazz drummer (but stupidly not the actual name of that drummer) stating in a Modern Drummer interview he tuned his kit to the first three notes of A Love Supreme. The notes for that lick would be 1-3-1-5, or in Cminor it's C for the floor tom (1), Eb for the rack tom (3), and G for the snare (5). That's all I know. Believe me, that's all I know. I've been on both sides of the kit, and I am more tolerant with drummers who just don't know, and I am very intolerant of guitar players who are just too !#$%* loud. When a drummer tells me my guitar is too loud, I understand it a little better. When a guitar player tells me my groove is 'all wrong', well, I still get offended. Gotta work on that.
M
Minion
Blow Me !!!
Ive been playing drums for about 23 years and I play guitar and bass also and drum tuneing has allways been my weak point , I can get the snare and bass drum no problem and I can tune and toms fairly well but I allways get this bad ringing overtone that just sounds awefull , to get rid of this I just used to tune my drums really low so they were so dead that there wasn"t any ringing but this just made them sound allmost as bad .....
I recently started trying drifferant drum skins to get rid of the ringing , I used to buy single ply heads cuz they were cheap but also had the bad ringing , I tried double ply pinstripes but they were sinply dead sounding no matter how I tuned them , now I"m trying these 2 ply evans heads I think are called OC2 , they have a thin metal strip between the heads close to the rim and these were really easy to tune and with no ringing at all , but they are about $25 a head ......
I recently started trying drifferant drum skins to get rid of the ringing , I used to buy single ply heads cuz they were cheap but also had the bad ringing , I tried double ply pinstripes but they were sinply dead sounding no matter how I tuned them , now I"m trying these 2 ply evans heads I think are called OC2 , they have a thin metal strip between the heads close to the rim and these were really easy to tune and with no ringing at all , but they are about $25 a head ......
D
dintymoore
Guest
In the last few years I've gone to calf heads and although I admit they aren't for everything I'm crazy over them. There is nothing that hurts about the sound, and I found that what was I was told (they're expensive, not durable, pain in the butt) isn't true.
For plastic heads I've used Remo Ambassadors which are medium and put a little felt and duct tape around the sides to get the sound I want. I'd rather use that method, even though it looks terrible, than use a pin stripe, oil filled, double ply head... anything like that 'cause they always seem like too much.
The thing with the duct tape is you can tweak it for the room and song.
For plastic heads I've used Remo Ambassadors which are medium and put a little felt and duct tape around the sides to get the sound I want. I'd rather use that method, even though it looks terrible, than use a pin stripe, oil filled, double ply head... anything like that 'cause they always seem like too much.
The thing with the duct tape is you can tweak it for the room and song.
ranjam
New member
So you 'get it'.
It's sympathetic vibations. All that is 'wrong' is the top/bottom head and the tom overall is tuned to some frequency that is in conflict with itself or other drums. Often I get this as the snares vibrating as I hit the tom. You have to pick a different tuning, and not so low as they sound terrible.
Some drum tuning guide mentioned lightly taping on the bare shell to hear its natural resonant frequency, and aim for that with heads on to get the drum in tune with itself. Me, I just slightly adjust the pitch or top-to-bottom tuning to get rid of most of the ring. Someone somewhere decided drums shouldn't ring at all, and convinced the rest of the world to buy Moongel or drum kits with suspended toms not mounted to the kick. Drums ring. Plus, if you try and tune a 10" tom on your small jazz kit so it can sound like a 12" tom, you'll have problems. Stick with single ply Remo Diplomat. Cheap, and a classic tone. Just muck about with your tuning. Make the bottom pitch equal to the top to begin, and of course higher than the snare. Loosen the resonant head slowly until you are happy. If it seems worse, raise the resonant head a touch. You will likely always have some ring, that will magically disappear as the band kicks in.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
Isn't it all a matter of taste ? I remember John Entwistle hating Keith Moon's drum sound on "Tommy", saying it sounded like biscuit tins. But I love the sound.
On occasions, the Beatles used a packing case instead of a snare {on some of the 'Beatles for sale' tracks}. Sounds OK to me.
Interestingly, ever since I started recording, I'd 'tune' the toms and sometimes the snare. I'd just hit them and get a relative tuning among the toms. And I'm not a drummer. This was long before I heard that drummers actually did tune their drums. I don't know why I did that. I also noticed that my friends that played drums would and still do 'tune' them and they'd always tune them lower than I would ! I rarely liked their sound in isolation, especially the floor tom. I t always sounded to me like a sofa. The other day, my friend tuned the snare and I swear, it sounded like a kettle. Awful ! But pretty neat in the context of the entire band sound.
I think most of the contributors to this thread have added something valuable. Balance.
On occasions, the Beatles used a packing case instead of a snare {on some of the 'Beatles for sale' tracks}. Sounds OK to me.
Interestingly, ever since I started recording, I'd 'tune' the toms and sometimes the snare. I'd just hit them and get a relative tuning among the toms. And I'm not a drummer. This was long before I heard that drummers actually did tune their drums. I don't know why I did that. I also noticed that my friends that played drums would and still do 'tune' them and they'd always tune them lower than I would ! I rarely liked their sound in isolation, especially the floor tom. I t always sounded to me like a sofa. The other day, my friend tuned the snare and I swear, it sounded like a kettle. Awful ! But pretty neat in the context of the entire band sound.
I think most of the contributors to this thread have added something valuable. Balance.
ranjam
New member
The key has always been 'live' vs. 'recording' for me. Live I tend to think more terms of how it all fits together and cuts through. I might use bigger sized drums tuned lower. Recording always makes me more critical, and I focus on the negative rather than think how it will fit together later, which seems counter intuitive. Maybe live I think the mistakes are here and gone in a nanosecond, while recorded clams come back to haunt you forever. I know I need to learn to relax and not be so focused on the negative. Sort of like getting a prostate exam . Then I started messing with the recording process, and that makes me play and tune different. Maybe there's reverb on the snare, maybe I'm using a compressor (well, often), maybe I'm side chaining an EQ into that compressor, etc. Then you hear the playback and that's not what you heard when you played it. Then you mix it all together and it seems even more foreign. Live I'll accept ringing toms, but never when I'm recording. The tradition was always to make them as dead as possible. You could add reverb or delay later. I'm sure Ringo said in an interview he called that playing 'pudding drums' since the rebound was similar to playing a bowl of pudding. Here's another thought to open a can of worms; do you tune different for different styles? If you were recording a straight blues shuffle, would you tune different from when you recorded a country 'train beat'? Would you EQ different? Would you have compression/reverb? It's a slippery slope. I guess that's why many session players carry a few snares to the studio.
. Then I started messing with the recording process, and that makes me play and tune different. Maybe there's reverb on the snare, maybe I'm using a compressor (well, often), maybe I'm side chaining an EQ into that compressor, etc. Then you hear the playback and that's not what you heard when you played it. Then you mix it all together and it seems even more foreign. Live I'll accept ringing toms, but never when I'm recording. The tradition was always to make them as dead as possible. You could add reverb or delay later. I'm sure Ringo said in an interview he called that playing 'pudding drums' since the rebound was similar to playing a bowl of pudding. Here's another thought to open a can of worms; do you tune different for different styles? If you were recording a straight blues shuffle, would you tune different from when you recorded a country 'train beat'? Would you EQ different? Would you have compression/reverb? It's a slippery slope. I guess that's why many session players carry a few snares to the studio.
D