I've come to the conclusion that a studio sound is only found in ... a studio

Yeah, what is the point? Do you want to record crap no one would ever want to listen to?

That's what I don't understand. When their product is mediocre or worse, why don't they want to get better? :confused:

Why don't they want to focus on the stuff that would give their music a fighting chance to be heard by someone other than their long-suffering girlfriends?

And they really don't. That's what floors me.


You've hit (however obliquely) on the central problem that kills or at least fatally stunts virtually every musician's career, something I call "Seductive Process," which is some interesting (to him) sidetrack from his professional path into which he wanders off and wastes the rest of his career...like obsessing over his guitar tone (in a performing vacuum where it doesn't matter) or sweep-picking nuisance shredding or having the biggest collection of microphones or trying every compression VST in the universe. Look at any music forum -- they're filled with people rabidly obsessing over crap that shouldn't take up 0.02% of anyone's attention.

Sidetracks into seductive process are undemanding and they don't reveal failure of outcome (though in fairness, some few musicians become successful in going pro with the particular seductive process that derailed their musical careers because they find their true calling in it somehow...but these are rare).

If you get sidetracked into the seductive process of finding the "best" overdrive dirtbox, you can for a couple of years delay the realization that you're a lousy musician who writes awful songs and who has no aesthetic sense and can't get along with a band and have a couple dozen other fatal problems that require REAL work and painful personal reassessment to advance as a music act.

And if you don't want to meaningfully advance as an act -- whatever that means to you when you set down and think about your goals -- why don't you sell your gear and drop the charade?

Successful people HATE process.

Process is only the foul muck you have to wade through to get across the swamp to dry ground and home. Process is something you delegate to others if you can (which brings us back to the Division of Labor).

Losers LOVE process because they can escape into it and hide their inadequacies from themselves. They never have to face the fact they failed because they never had any clear outcomes defined in the first place.

When I was doing broadcast playlisting and format development, I (and about six or eight helpers) determined whether a new recording was good enough to go into national heavy rotation, light rotation or into the landfill forever. People who did that were literally the most powerful people in music in terms of generated revenues. My decisions meant millions of dollars -- or zero dollars -- to the record companies, and I was good at my job. How much influence did, oh, kcearl's insights have on the industry? :confused:

In most cases, I can tell you -- instantly -- what's wrong with a finished recording and what's holding it back from being something more people want to listen to. Isn't that the point? If making something that more people would want to hear isn't the point, and apparently it isn't for a lot of process-oriented people, then what is?

If home recording is to live up to its promise, and there's no technical reason why it can't, it will require networking of specialized, competent amateur talent working in concert with each other to match the professional-grade outcomes the big-$ acts have with their army of specialists. The Internet makes this freely possible, and that's the greatest thing in terms of potential -- you don't have to reinvent the wheel every time you take up recording.

But this isn't what I see happening. What I see is the predictable one-man-does-all (badly) situation where the guy has ten cents worth of anything to contribute to music and a million-dollar load of defensive ego, and instead of seeking out those who will work with him to get something done, he gravitates to what are effectively social-networking forums for those just like him to mutually support that awful mindset.

Upon much urging, I sat down and listened to three hours of Reaper Radio in a good listening environment.

During that painful time, I did not hear one song I would ever want to hear again under any circumstances. The engineering was professionally adequate, some performers had some individual talent, but the recordings had awful production and awful material. And yes, I do know the difference.

On their forum, I would have never said that, but when the subject came up, I did say, "There's more to a great record than the absence of gross engineering errors."

Though obviously, blatantly true, it was met with sullen hostility. They didn't want to hear it. They wanted to stay in some circle-jerk about seductive process rather than maximizing their access to willing listeners.

That's why serious pros (who often really do want to help) blow these people off and leave in disgust. Why break your heart over people who are that willfully stupid and doomed? :(

This is a great post, and I thank you for your time in writing it. I urge others to see the value in it without letting some of the sharp edges turn them off.

Let me add something that may assist your understanding.

I love to write record music. I do it because it makes me happy. I make a little money at it, but if I had to make a career out of it, I'd have to write and record music that doesn't make me as happy. Does that make sense?

I'm not in this for money or success or recognition, although all of those things are nice. I do it because otherwise I'd just be a worthless drug addict.
 
To be fair, I also think bringing it up in this context is a lot like pointing to the existence of anarchists during a discussion about various forms of representative government. :p

But yeah, otherwise agreed - the Toneport is cool, but it's not a substitute for a good amp. I won't even say "for $25k in amps" because really I think that's a false dichotomy - had it not been for modelers first giving people the ability to squeeze that many sounds into one box, and then marketing their collective asses off to convince people they NEEDED 36 amps for their studio, we'd never be having that discussion today. Countless classic albums were cut with a single amp, and even through the 80s it was common for bands to do an entire album with maybe a Marshall, a SLO, and a Fender Twin or something, if they wanted to go no holds barred. One good amp would be a perfectly adequate replacement for a Pod for a home studio, if Line6 hadn't had so much invested in convincing home engineers that it wasn't.

I thoght that Seymore Duncan came out with a pretty good modeling amp in the early 80s...Id love to have one of those today.
http://www.diyguitarist.com/GuitarAmps/Convert.htm
 
I love to write record music. I do it because it makes me happy. I make a little money at it, but if I had to make a career out of it, I'd have to write and record music that doesn't make me as happy. Does that make sense?

I understand what you are saying, though I will add that there are situations that for some people COULD provide both the money AND a positive creative outlet.

I'm not saying this is the case for you...but too often people connect "making it" in the music industry as something bad or totally in opposition with what is "good music" and many will make that claim without ever actually experiencing that first hand....they just assume that their art will suffer if they "sell out"...or some such thing.

I've said it before...there are a lot of artists that made it big and we all LOVE their music!
 
I understand what you are saying, though I will add that there are situations that for some people COULD provide both the money AND a positive creative outlet.

I'm not saying this is the case for you...but too often people connect "making it" in the music industry as something bad or totally in opposition with what is "good music" and many will make that claim without ever actually experiencing that first hand....they just assume that their art will suffer if they "sell out"...or some such thing.

I've said it before...there are a lot of artists that made it big and we all LOVE their music!

Yep. Some people really like bad music. :D
 
This is a great post, and I thank you for your time in writing it. I urge others to see the value in it without letting some of the sharp edges turn them off.

Let me add something that may assist your understanding.

I love to write record music. I do it because it makes me happy. I make a little money at it, but if I had to make a career out of it, I'd have to write and record music that doesn't make me as happy. Does that make sense?

I'm not in this for money or success or recognition, although all of those things are nice. I do it because otherwise I'd just be a worthless drug addict.
It is a great post, except it dismisses works of art such as (for example) Beethoven's 9th Symphony. The beginning of its 1st movement definitely drags on for miles, simmering for quite a while, until you get a bang. Definitely NOT an attention grabber in 15 secons or less.

And therein lies my contention. I agree with the guy (as much of an asshat of an attitude as he may have) that if you want to write pop music to top the charts then you'll be best adviced to follow what he says.

The problem is that, the music world is much richer than top 100. Sure, the vast majority does not get much of an acclaim, and probably 90% of the music out there is missed by the masses, that doesn't preclude them from being good music.

One also has to realise that there are some niche genres, that cater to a somewhat small % of the population. Does that mean that an entire genre is "unworthy" just because there aren't a lot of people that are into it?
 
It is a great post, except it dismisses works of art such as (for example) Beethoven's 9th Symphony. The beginning of its 1st movement definitely drags on for miles, simmering for quite a while, until you get a bang. Definitely NOT an attention grabber in 15 secons or less.

And therein lies my contention. I agree with the guy (as much of an asshat of an attitude as he may have) that if you want to write pop music to top the charts then you'll be best adviced to follow what he says.

The problem is that, the music world is much richer than top 100. Sure, the vast majority does not get much of an acclaim, and probably 90% of the music out there is missed by the masses, that doesn't preclude them from being good music.

One also has to realise that there are some niche genres, that cater to a somewhat small % of the population. Does that mean that an entire genre is "unworthy" just because there aren't a lot of people that are into it?

I don't think he meant for his post to be dismissive at all. I think its a valuable perspective, and I think we can all stipulate that is is focused rather tightly on commercial music and hit radio.

This is, after all, home recording - and we are all home recordists. Perhaps there are a few here who need stronger medicine.
 
if you want to write pop music to top the charts then you'll be best adviced to follow what he says.

The problem is that, the music world is much richer than top 100. Sure, the vast majority does not get much of an acclaim, and probably 90% of the music out there is missed by the masses, that doesn't preclude them from being good music.

But here's a question....

Do you guys think it's possible to write Pop music for the top 100...and ALSO write music that is more "artsy" (or whatever you want to call it).
IOW...why can't you do both?
There are musicians that write MOR stuff for the masses but that also have their "side projects" where they explore other areas of interest.
And...IMO...not all of the top 100 Pop/Rock is necessarily "bad" music.
I hear some songs that have good lyrics and/or melodies...they just are what they are...Pop/Rock tunes.

Maybe I'm not your typical music listener...but while I can truly enjoy some classical music...or some real avant-garde punk...or some artsy ambient drone...
...I also like a lot of Pop/Rock "Top 100" stuff too.
There can be a certain appeal to more straightforward/simplistic music....not just the complex or odd stuff.
Heck...all those Motown hits of the 60s are VERY simplistic and even juvenile for the most part....yet they are some killer Pop/Rock songs that will hook your ear EVERY TIME, and to me...that's what good music is…when it can “hook” you like that.

I just don't agree that Pop/Rock is generally some menial, lesser quality music just 'cuz it appeals to the masses.
 
But here's a question....

Do you guys think it's possible to write Pop music for the top 100...and ALSO write music that is more "artsy" (or whatever you want to call it).
IOW...why can't you do both?
There are musicians that write MOR stuff for the masses but that also have their "side projects" where they explore other areas of interest.
And...IMO...not all of the top 100 Pop/Rock is necessarily "bad" music.
I hear some songs that have good lyrics and/or melodies...they just are what they are...Pop/Rock tunes.

Maybe I'm not your typical music listener...but while I can truly enjoy some classical music...or some real avant-garde punk...or some artsy ambient drone...
...I also like a lot of Pop/Rock "Top 100" stuff too.
There can be a certain appeal to more straightforward/simplistic music....not just the complex or odd stuff.
Heck...all those Motown hits of the 60s are VERY simplistic and even juvenile for the most part....yet they are some killer Pop/Rock songs that will hook your ear EVERY TIME, and to me...that's what good music is…when it can “hook” you like that.

I just don't agree that Pop/Rock is generally some menial, lesser quality music just 'cuz it appeals to the masses.

I think "generally" it is but it's not the rule and/or hasn't been


there has been tons of great top 100 stuff..its just that it seems to be getting thinner and thinner as the years go by imo


I also don't think "pop" music as it is marketed now will be around forever..it may just be a phenomenon that will run it's course
 
I just don't agree that Pop/Rock is generally some menial, lesser quality music just 'cuz it appeals to the masses.
I don't think I've ever said that :confused:

OK, I have, but it was DEFINITELY in a tongue-in-cheek, "taking the piss" (sorry, I know it's a british expression, but I LOVE IT) manner :) However, I have never seriously dismissed a piece of music, simply because it was in a particular genre. I HAVE dismissed a piece of music or a band or an artist simply because I thought they were simply bad, regardless of the genre and regardless of acclaim.

Overall, I am in agreement with your post.

As to whether you can write Pop to make money and "artsy" stuff "cuz you like it"... it depends whether you wanna make money making music. I am at a point in my life that I am OK with making a living in the IT industry. In fact I enjoy my work as a Systems Admin, it's challenging, interesting, and even creative in a techy sort of way :) So, that leaves me to go off on musical tangents and "what if's" as a way of enjoying my life.

Who knows, maybe I'll decide at one point to seriously consider an album project, but even then, given the genre, I'll most likely release it as a 320k mp3.
 
And...IMO...not all of the top 100 Pop/Rock is necessarily "bad" music.
I hear some songs that have good lyrics and/or melodies...they just are what they are...Pop/Rock tunes.

Maybe I'm not your typical music listener...but while I can truly enjoy some classical music...or some real avant-garde punk...or some artsy ambient drone...
...I also like a lot of Pop/Rock "Top 100" stuff too.
And to take it further, the assumption that there is stratification by genre is pretty false - or at least over-simplistic - also. Just because something never makes it to the pop lists does not automatically mean it's another genre or style altogether, or only appealing to those with esoteric tastes. There's a ton of stuff that never makes it to Clear Channel's playlists that the general public could and would easily eat up. There plenty of "alt" everything out there that is only really all that "alt" because a half-dozen people in L.A. have decided it so.

Wen you have only a couple of labels and maybe two broadcast companies deciding what 90% of the public gets to hear on the radio you have two controlling factors going; the limited record company budgets for advertising and promotion, combined with the radio's desire to create a "hit" playlist of limited size at any given time, means that only a small number of fish from a very large pool are selected for that manufactured "pop hit" status at any given time.

But that pool is still out there, and the fishing is pretty good. You just gotta go out, find the right cove and catch them yourself. The days of having a specialty market that will gut and package them for you automatically is all but gone outside of the smaller stations, public radio and a couple of satellite stations.

G.
 
I don't think I've ever said that :confused:

I don't think I ever said you did. ;) :D

But I've heard the arguments many times about how much anything commerciaL *sucks*...I just don't agree with that.

See...my view is that I can make "artsy" music any time I want without any restrictions...etc.

The real trick is figuring out how to make some commercial Pop/Rock that puts some serious bread in your pocket...and then you can quit your day gig and just make artsy music the rest of your life without ever giving a damn about anything. :cool:
 
isnt there an inbetween...make "artsy" music (whatever that is) and sell enough to make a comfortable living without aiming for the ferrari/supermodel/mansion?
 
isnt there an inbetween...make "artsy" music (whatever that is) and sell enough to make a comfortable living without aiming for the ferrari/supermodel/mansion?
Absolutely. That's what I'm trying - in my clumsy oaf of a way - to get across. You have the "almost famous". There are a thousands of bands and artists out there that never make it to Clear Channel or Jack Radio, never quite have full national or international recognition, but still manage to sell a few tens of thousands discs a year, enough to generate a reliable if somewhat less than stellar income for both the label and the artist. You may not get the Ferrari and the mansion, but that route is usually a dead end anyway. But you can surely support a family comfortably at the "almost famous" echelon.

The you have the "career musician", where you make a career out of music in general, if not necessarily as a B-list band. You may meet that B- or even A-level level here and there, but it's a bit more entrepreneurial over the long haul.

I have a couple of long-time friends, one's a drummer, the other a bass player and music school music director, both of them in their 50s, that illustrate that pretty well. The drummer has made a living virtually his entire adult career out of playing drums. The bass player hadn't held a "real day job" (so to speak) until he was brought on a the music director at the School of Rock just a couple of years ago, and has lived happily off of his bass talents.

Al lot depends upon your definition of "comfortable". of course. Being a career musician is like a form of entrepreneurship; there will be times of feast and times of famine. But during those times of famine, you figure out ways of getting by. Between the two of them, they have played (during times of feast) for the likes of Stevie Wonder, John Hiatt, The Meters, Spirit, and many others. During times of famine they gave music lessons and organized house bands for jam nights and the like. But both of them have the experience and the local rep now after all these years, where the drummer has about thirty different bands or artists that have him on speed dial and the bassist has a similar network built up to suppliment his music director gig (which he loves), and both put in pretty much full-time hours and receive full-time-like career-level pay in return.

G.
 
Absolutely. That's what I'm trying - in my clumsy oaf of a way - to get across. You have the "almost famous". There are a thousands of bands and artists out there that never make it to Clear Channel or Jack Radio, never quite have full national or international recognition, but still manage to sell a few tens of thousands discs a year, enough to generate a reliable if somewhat less than stellar income for both the label and the artist. You may not get the Ferrari and the mansion, but that route is usually a dead end anyway. But you can surely support a family comfortably at the "almost famous" echelon.

The you have the "career musician", where you make a career out of music in general, if not necessarily as a B-list band. You may meet that B- or even A-level level here and there, but it's a bit more entrepreneurial over the long haul.

I have a couple of long-time friends, one's a drummer, the other a bass player and music school music director, both of them in their 50s, that illustrate that pretty well. The drummer has made a living virtually his entire adult career out of playing drums. The bass player hadn't held a "real day job" (so to speak) until he was brought on a the music director at the School of Rock just a couple of years ago, and has lived happily off of his bass talents.

Al lot depends upon your definition of "comfortable". of course. Being a career musician is like a form of entrepreneurship; there will be times of feast and times of famine. But during those times of famine, you figure out ways of getting by. Between the two of them, they have played (during times of feast) for the likes of Stevie Wonder, John Hiatt, The Meters, Spirit, and many others. During times of famine they gave music lessons and organized house bands for jam nights and the like. But both of them have the experience and the local rep now after all these years, where the drummer has about thirty different bands or artists that have him on speed dial and the bassist has a similar network built up to suppliment his music director gig (which he loves), and both put in pretty much full-time hours and receive full-time-like career-level pay in return.

G.

Totally agree, that's the thing we get drawn into disagreements that basically stem from opinions being taken as absolutes. Even Miros top one hundred comment made me think that actually if I had a problem with most modern music (as in liked or disliked) its not necessarally the music that gets in the top one hundred, I mean unless your on your way down from hitting the top twenty how much is a band viewed as successful, or even commercial, that never enters the top fifty by folks in the music business?

I love bands like Wilco, 16 Horsepower, Deerhunter etc, Im sure they all chart..that would make them commercially successful but unless record companies are deliberately creating soundalikes to mimic them I wouldn't say they were commercial imo..

Speaking of holding a real day job my friend Martyn wrote/recorded "Pump up the Volume" back in the early eighties...by the early ninties it was looking tough for him then "kids n play" released a film with it on the soundtrack..last time I caught up with him on '02 he still didnt have to work

that was one single...I bet theres not many singles released nowadays with that kind of earning potential
 
Matt, not to single you out, but whenever I see something like this, my bullshit meter goes off. Are you saying you DON'T want to drive six Ferarris? That you DON'T want to bang supermodels and actresses? That you DON'T want a huge mansion overlooking the bay? Because I sure as hell would. The poodle mullet and hemp necklace I understand, but to single those out as things you'd "envy," and then kind of as an afterthought start listing off some of the big-dollar trappings of material success to me sort of sounds like you're countering your point

Ok, allow me to clarify. Would I like to have Nickelsack Kroeger's financial means? Hell yeah. But my point was, that fact has nothing whatsoever to do with why I can't stand his music. Mick Jagger could probably buy Nickelback with the change buried under his couch cushions--do I hate the Stones out of envy? Not at all; in fact I'm a pretty big fan. That's right, when I talk about how crappy I think Nickelback is, I'm saying it for no other reason than that: because I think they're crappy. I'm baffled at how many people find this scenario to be so implausible that they search for some underlying meaning in what I say. Not saying you're one of these people Drew, but having encountered so many of them over the years is the reason I made the post in the first place.

I read it getting the sense that somehow you don't think it's fair that he gets all that for writing simple, radio-ready pop music, and you ARE in fact envious of the success, simply because you think you're artistically "more pure" than he is. Which, of course, as a guy who has never heard your music so I can say this without it coming off as an insult I hope, a total opinion/judgement call thing.

I'm not so audacious as to claim that my opinion on what music should reap the big rewards is better than anybody else's. Again, this is reading too much into a simple statement that needs to be taken at face value. Me, I knew music would always just be a hobby, so I went to university for 6 years. Therefore, I find no point in comparing myself to Nickelback.
 
Yeah...but I'm already making a comfortable living...and I don't have to sell any music to do it. ;)

I mean, I could switch my day job for a music gigs and whatnot, but that can be too erratic. Sometimes too much feast-n-famine.
Some guys can pull off a steady music carreer gig, but it's not easy, and at this point of my life, it would be too complicated and risky.
If I was in my 20s...it would be tempting to go the full-time gig route (heck, I did it when I was in my 20s)...but right now I can make any kind of music I want, and not worry about a steady paycheck. I already get one.

So...I got nothing to lose trying to sell some commercially viable music...and if I can, well...then I will live even more comfortably. :)
 
Speaking of holding a real day job my friend Martyn wrote/recorded "Pump up the Volume" back in the early eighties...by the early ninties it was looking tough for him then "kids n play" released a film with it on the soundtrack..last time I caught up with him on '02 he still didnt have to work

that was one single...I bet theres not many singles released nowadays with that kind of earning potential
That reminds me of the Vic Mizzy story that was in the news just today. Mizzy was the songwriter who wrote the theme songs for the TV shows "Green Acres" and "The Addams Family", and he died today. He was quoted as saying that if all he was remembered for was the finger snaps in the Addams Family theme, he'd be OK with that, because those finger snaps paid for his Beverly Hills mansion. :).

Personally, though, I think it's a mistake for someone starting out in this racket to rely on trying to swing for the home run in that way. "All I have to do is make one hit record and I'll live off the residuals." Can it happen? Sure. But that's a "win the lottery" mentality that, even for the very talented, has odds of success about as long as hitting the lottery big.

I can only speak from my own witnessing and experience, but it seems to me that the best formula for success, both B-list and A-list, is what they tout in business in general, and that's building up a personal network. The guys and gals who get the most work, the steadiest work, and the most reliable income, are those that build the strongest network of friends and acquaintances in the business. It has an avalanche effect, too; the larger and stronger the network, the larger and faster it can grow, and grow into filks like producers, engineers, A&R folks, etc. who get to know your name at the very least.

Most "home rums" go over the fence only because there was someone with the connections who actually got to hear the swing. You can be the best musician or songwriter in the world, but if nobody of any weight gets to hear it, it's like a tree falling in the woods and making a sound no one hears. Channels like meSpace can help, but if you have no one referring or vouching for you - i.e. no real network or reputation - you're just another one of a unknown million folks out there who has to have either an astronomical amount of talent or of luck just to get noticed.

And the idea of "over night" success is fairly mythical, also. While there are exceptions (at astronomical odds), most "new discoveries" are not just off the street, but rather have been working at their craft below the surface of national notoriety for many years just to get to the point of being a "new discovery." The more people that know you *and* have a positive impression of you,the better you chance of "getting discovered".

G.
 
Absolutely. That's what I'm trying - in my clumsy oaf of a way - to get across. You have the "almost famous". There are a thousands of bands and artists out there that never make it to Clear Channel or Jack Radio, never quite have full national or international recognition, but still manage to sell a few tens of thousands discs a year, enough to generate a reliable if somewhat less than stellar income for both the label and the artist. You may not get the Ferrari and the mansion, but that route is usually a dead end anyway. But you can surely support a family comfortably at the "almost famous" echelon.

The you have the "career musician", where you make a career out of music in general, if not necessarily as a B-list band. You may meet that B- or even A-level level here and there, but it's a bit more entrepreneurial over the long haul.

I have a couple of long-time friends, one's a drummer, the other a bass player and music school music director, both of them in their 50s, that illustrate that pretty well. The drummer has made a living virtually his entire adult career out of playing drums. The bass player hadn't held a "real day job" (so to speak) until he was brought on a the music director at the School of Rock just a couple of years ago, and has lived happily off of his bass talents.

Al lot depends upon your definition of "comfortable". of course. Being a career musician is like a form of entrepreneurship; there will be times of feast and times of famine. But during those times of famine, you figure out ways of getting by. Between the two of them, they have played (during times of feast) for the likes of Stevie Wonder, John Hiatt, The Meters, Spirit, and many others. During times of famine they gave music lessons and organized house bands for jam nights and the like. But both of them have the experience and the local rep now after all these years, where the drummer has about thirty different bands or artists that have him on speed dial and the bassist has a similar network built up to suppliment his music director gig (which he loves), and both put in pretty much full-time hours and receive full-time-like career-level pay in return.

G.

There are indie artists out there who sell thier own stuff without a label...example Julianna Hatfield...this lady sells 100,000 units a record...and doesnt share with any company...she is a millionaire...there are many like her.
 
There are indie artists out there who sell thier own stuff without a label...example Julianna Hatfield...this lady sells 100,000 units a record...and doesnt share with any company...she is a millionaire...there are many like her.

And that's what I want to freakin' do myself.

Granted if you start selling in the tens of thousands you may need to hire a staff or two to handle distribution issues, but then in essence you have your own label.
 
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