Do you start "producing" your song before it's done?

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RAMI

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Just wondering how different people approach this.

Do you wait until all your tracks are done before you start mixing? Or do you find yourself mixing (which includes effects, Eq'ing, etc...as well as setting levels) as you track?

I often find that by the time I get to the last tracks, which is usually vocals, I've already done quite a bit of mixing and might be about 75% "there", give or take the adjustments I'll make when I have all the tracks to work with. This might be because there are certain times of the day that I can't track, but I can still listen. So, without making a conscious effort have the song mixed, I find myself getting a lot of it done before I have everything recorded.
 
RAMI said:
Just wondering how different people approach this.
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Well, I am often accused of being a "different" person, so I'll be glad to kick it off by saying, first, that the circumstances of any given project do much of the dictation for me, and that here is no one single way that I wind up approaching it. That said...

I'm going to take the liberty of splitting your question into two different questions, since it kind of seems that in the title you're asking at what point do I start producing, and in the body of the post, you're asking about when I start mixing.

Ideally, I'd like to start producing not only before the recording is finished, but before it's even started. This doesn't mean that I'm not open to changes as the project unfolds, but it does mean that, for me - if I'm wearing the producer's hat - that the production direction starts with working on and deciding the arrangement to work on in the studio, long before The Button is hit.

In my situation, though, that's not always possible for me; most of my stuff over the last few years has gotten to my desk after the tracking has been done elsewhere, and I'm asked to produce/mix from the raw tracks onward.

And in the middle, probably more to what you're probably looking for, often I'll want to submix the rhythm tracks (percussion and bass) to a stereo stem and lay the rest on top of that, and it's possible that sometimes this may happen before I get all the rest of the tracks recorded. But usually I prefer a faders-up approach; get everything laid down first,throw the faders up and let that faders-up "mix" talk to me.

So much of which way any given project goes depends upon the circumstances; how early in the process I get involved, what kind of musical content is it, the level of studio talent and capability in the band, are the different instrument tracked sequentially, and perhaps on different days, etc. I gave my personal preferences above, but the situation does not always allow me my preferences.

YMMV IMHO I-PASS H.M.S. ETC.

G.
 
Undoubtedly, the most important part of "production" is pre-production.

I want to hear the song live once - Then I know what the mix is going to sound like when it's done.

At least in theory...
 
With my own music...I'm usually in produce mode from the very first notes/chords. As soon as I hear the song in my head (even before it's a finished song) I'm immediately hearing the production...the overall direction of the song.
Of course...I also like to let the song take its course, which means that at times the production evolves with the tracking.

AFA mixing....during tracking, I will throw up rough mixes for tracking purposes, but I'm not really worried about setting levels and panning or EQ’ing stuff other than to help with the tracking process.
When I do start to already mix is after the tracks are dumped from tape into the DAW and I begin the editing/comping.
At that point, I'm pretty much building the mix, and by the time I'm ready to actually mix...I also have about 75% of it done, but then, that last 25% is always the hardest! :D
 
RAMI said:
Just wondering how different people approach this.

Do you wait until all your tracks are done before you start mixing? Or do you find yourself mixing (which includes effects, Eq'ing, etc...as well as setting levels) as you track?

I often find that by the time I get to the last tracks, which is usually vocals, I've already done quite a bit of mixing and might be about 75% "there", give or take the adjustments I'll make when I have all the tracks to work with. This might be because there are certain times of the day that I can't track, but I can still listen. So, without making a conscious effort have the song mixed, I find myself getting a lot of it done before I have everything recorded.
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I'm the exact same way. It's like you read my mind. By the time I get to vocals, I usually have it at least 75% done. Probably more like 90%. I don't find that my vocals interact too strongly with anything in the middle of the soundfield, so it's no big deal to me to have the song mostly mixed and "produced" before dropping the vox in there. Usually I might have to raise the overheads or guitars a little after the vocals, but nothing major.
 
I'm with Rami and Greg L on this one . . . I mix and mess around as I go . . . that way I get a feel for how the song is shaping up, and where there are gaps (or the opposite; too much).

By the time the last bit is recorded . . . the song has just about mixed itself along the way.
 
Since I don't do the traditional instruments + vocals = song type stuff, my workflow is a blur (or a mess, depending on point of view) of all of the above.

What many refer to mixing, for me turns into sound design. I have a lot of "what if"s. "What if I take this sound, that sound, combine them together and process them in such and such way". Oftentimes I'll just sit down and have experimental sessions of such nature.

Other times, if I am in a more melodic mood, I'll actually sit down with a staff paper and pencil and compose a score, with descriptive names for each "instrument" line such as "phased vocoded glassy pad" to remind myself what kind of sound I was thinking of when I was writing the notes. Then once I have that, I'll have a synthesis/sampling session where I create the sounds as close to what I wanted, and then record/sequence/mix the whole mess.

Other times, I'll sequence a part using one sound, then change the patch on the synth, or route the MIDI part to another sound source to see what the sequence sounds like with other timbres. At times, I might even have that sequence "play" a drum sampler and see what kind of rhythm comes out of it, adjusting notes as need be.

I am also a big fan of polyphony and thematic development (all those years of playing Bach Fugues from the Well Tempered Clavier have had a major effect on my musical thinking), so as I write/mix and develop the tune, I might even take something like the reverb tail of a submix and turn that into a musical idea of its own.

So, I cannot say I have distinct phases, even if there is some semblance of what you might call "recording" and "final mixing/mixdown". I call my process "creation" :D
 
Definitely as I go... I feel the mix is part of the creative process. I want to get it close to what I hear in my head as soon as possible so i can tell if I need to add more or change something. My songs aren't written until they're completely mixed.
 
I have little patients so i like to get started right away.
 
I'm a folk singer so mostly it's just me and tenor guitar.
So my usual routine would be half a dozen takes of the same song, choose the best one and clean it up.
At this stage the song should be able to stand on its own. If not, start again.
If it's fine I send it off for some bass. When the bass is added I'll decide whether I want to add some more instruments. Nine times out of ten I don't.
 
RAMI said:
Just wondering how different people approach this.

Do you wait until all your tracks are done before you start mixing? Or do you find yourself mixing (which includes effects, Eq'ing, etc...as well as setting levels) as you track?

I often find that by the time I get to the last tracks, which is usually vocals, I've already done quite a bit of mixing and might be about 75% "there", give or take the adjustments I'll make when I have all the tracks to work with. This might be because there are certain times of the day that I can't track, but I can still listen. So, without making a conscious effort have the song mixed, I find myself getting a lot of it done before I have everything recorded.
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Man this is such a killer...cause I think it really comes down to a case by case basis. Even producers and engineers with a "routine" change it up with every new album, most of the time because they have no choice. The artist is the creator and you have to go with it. Even if you're producing yourself. In fact, I think it's twice as hard to produce myself than anyone else.

*Ideally* I like to separate my head for recording, then let my mind and ears recover to do mixing another time. I'm a big fan of letting things take a month or two if they can. You have no idea how awesome it is to mix something that you almost forgot about. You get a brand new perspective on how to mix it.

Of course, if the artist is a fucking spaz, then you gotta fly by what they are going with. The Killer's "Hot Fuss" was all recorded and mixed "on the fly" and it worked for them. Sounded kinda sloppy, but it worked.

Smashing Pumpkins got all A.D.D with "Zeitgeist" and ended up doing on the fly type shit and it ended up sounding horrible in my opinion. So to me, it didn't work as well. Thank god Terry Date saved it...sorta.

But honestly, at the end of the day, if it works one way or the other, that's all that matters right? I say switch it up, see what different results that gives you.


ps.
Alcohol helps add flavor to those writing sessions :D
 
LeeRosario said:
I'm a big fan of letting things take a month or two if they can.
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Time is a greater revealer of mixing flaws.

The excitement of getting soething done can cloud your acoustic judgement, and convince you that what you've just done is a masterpiece.

As I mentioned above, I like to mix as I go. But I also like to then forget it for a while and come back to it. Sometimes it makes me say "what on earth was I thinking when I mixed that?" Sometimes it reveals a recording flaw that should have been picked up earlier (like a bass slightly out of tune, or whatever).

Sometimes I decide to start completely from scratch, and totally rebuild the mix. But you know what? When I compare 'before' with 'after', in many cases the difference is barely perceptible.
 
Being as I make rap beats I look at the word production kind of differently to how you guys will but my usual process is this.

Make a rough loop. Something that is going to be the main part that the rapper will use. I'll then try and find a hook of some sorts and add that to the loop in a rough way then two track it down and leave it. My worst problem is over listening to something and getting used to it and then not hearing the potential changes.

I'll send it to someone to get their thoughts on what they think the beat is telling them to rap about. I'll get them into the studio and lay down the vocals and then I'll listen to that over the next couple of days on the way to work making little post it notes on what I would like to change. Drum roll here, switch up the bass line here, add strings there etc. I'll do those changes and then make a rough mix and send that to a few people to get a fresh ear. Again. I have a real problem with over hearing a song sometimes.

When I'm happy with it I'll, now mix it myself but in the past I would have taken the parts to a studio and got them mixed.

Of course everyone is different. Some rappers want sketches others want finished products so I do tailor my approach if I know I'm working with someone who only wants a finished beat so to say but as a rule I prefer to get rough ideas down leave them and go onto something else.
 
Cool, so I'm not the only one that starts twiddling knobs early in the process.

I knew using the word "produce" would cloud the issue, which is why I put it in quotaion marks and didn't use the word "produce" anywhere in my post. I'm well aware that "production" starts well before recording. In fact, I'd say 90% of the time, I already hear an almost complete song in my head before I start recording anything.

BarryB said:
My worst problem is over listening to something and getting used to it and then not hearing the potential changes.
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That's a great point, and I know exactly what you mean. Which is why Lee's point about not listening to something for a few months and then coming to it being good for getting a fresh perspective, makes sense. There's just no way I would have the patience to deliberately do that.
 
I get to a point in any song that I mix it, burn it to a CD, and play it in my car for 1 week. If anything starts to bug me I change it. I add tracks etc. and do this all again. By the time the song is done it has all been hashed out and becomes the version that gets properly mixed and mastered.
 
LeeRosario said:
*Ideally* I like to separate my head for recording, then let my mind and ears recover to do mixing another time. I'm a big fan of letting things take a month or two if they can. You have no idea how awesome it is to mix something that you almost forgot about. You get a brand new perspective on how to mix it.
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'Ahg yes, the ol' 'hearing it again for the first time' ploy" (in best Inspector Clouseau voice..:p

That's that same thing when you kick in for 'self mastering mode'. :)
 
RAMI said:
Just wondering how different people approach this.

Do you wait until all your tracks are done before you start mixing? Or do you find yourself mixing (which includes effects, Eq'ing, etc...as well as setting levels) as you track?

I often find that by the time I get to the last tracks, which is usually vocals, I've already done quite a bit of mixing and might be about 75% "there", give or take the adjustments I'll make when I have all the tracks to work with. This might be because there are certain times of the day that I can't track, but I can still listen. So, without making a conscious effort have the song mixed, I find myself getting a lot of it done before I have everything recorded.
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I try not to, but I usually fail. :p

I think it's a product of my early days in digital recording (I got the bug in college, working on my laptop back in 99/00) where I didn't have the sort of computing firepower to record more than 30 seconds at a time without issues, much less start adding FX and whatnot into the mix. So, in my early days as a hobbyist I had to be careful with system resources because by the time I got a few 'verbs, choruses, compressors, and delays going, I was beginning to have problems with audio aritifacts with more than even 6-8 tracks. Because of that, I just got into the habit of recording as clean as possible.

I started to change once I finally upgraded to a desktop setup with enough CPU power to handle just about anything I could throw at it, but these days I'm trying to get out of the habit all over again, less because of CPU drain and more because I'm trying to make myself get better at "engineering" an album, so I can use as little EQ as possible - if something doesn't sound right, more often than not I'd rather go back and re-record it than start tweaking parameters.

That said... These days I'll generally at LEAST set levels and pan while tracking, and usually when I'm recording guitar solos, since I'm a delay junkie and usually have a delay in the loop when I'm not recording, will usually put a stereo delay on the bus I'm recording leads on, just because that's what I'm used to hearing.

After I finish tracking, then I go back and start doing some EQ tweaks, adding compressors where need be, adding verbs, etc. But even then, I'm not looking to fundamentally change anything - rarely will a mix sound radically different after I "mix" it over and above setting levels. Admittedly, that could mean I can't mix for shit. ;)
 
on the fly....

I have found that the best results come from CONSTANT mixing. Occasionally I will find that a certain instrument may not blend in the way I intended it to , but this is the kind of thing that a guy can only discover "on the fly"
The earlier in the process that I find and fix these problems, the better a project will come together in the end, and the happier the client is gonna be.


chazba

fight organized crime...
vote em ALL out of office.
 
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