Theory Question...

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SEDstar

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I have an odd question...

I am always working towards a sonata form, and am again coming back to once AGAIN try to tackle it. (pulling it off would be, like, "arriving" somehow, lol **shrugs**)

following basic form, the intro is okay. I have stuff before the first 1:00 seems perfect or close enough.

Its when I go to the next key. I dont just want to just abruptly go into the new key, I am supposed to "modulate" into it. I was wondering exactly what that entailed?

what technique allows me to more smoothly, without stopping in ONE key and restarting in the NEXT, allows me to smoothly move from one to the other?

I feel i am missing something, likely very basic.

keep in mind, since I like to use minor pent, I cant just go from I to mV, I have to use relative major in place of the IV... which later when I am required to go to the "major" of the key, it "does not seem to be" pent major of the home key, that is clearly out of place...

NOTE: When i say "suposed to", I dont mean I HAVE to, but... I am trying to first go along to template form... from there I can be more creative after I am comfortable with standard form...

I have one piece I like the intro... I REALLY like the second movement, and going to the "major" of the initial minor key is clearly "dead wrong"... what "major" scale is appropriate there?
 
One method I use to go from one key to another is to look at the notes of the melody at the end of the section that is to lead to a key change.

For example, you might have a chord sequence G C D D. The melody line in the last D chord may include a D note. In this case, you can change the last chord to an E, keep the melody note as D (which creates an E7 chord). But from the E you can then start the next section in A.

If the melody line is using an F#, instead of using a final D chord (or E), you can use a B and modulate in to E.

So the technique is to find a concluding chord that is not normally associated with the key in which you are playing, but which supports the notes of the melody in that key, then use that to lead into a new key.
 
This approach seems like how you do crossword puzzles... problem solving, good as an exercise but are you really listening... or mainly using logic?

Music isn't of that, it's of being a channel for the spirit world.
 
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dintymoore said:
Music isn't of that, it's of being a channel for the spirit world.
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For me it is not a channel for the spirit world, because I have no connections to any spirit world.

For me it is about the sound of the melody, the progression of the musical story, and how I then turn it into a reality with a chord structure.
 
hmmm...

well... I HAVE read on modulation, but... it always seems to center more on the type of song (in examples...) where for instance theres guitar strummed chords under lyrics, you know, a "singer songwriters song"

I am doing classical with no lyrics, and any "chords" are formed by melodies by coincidence as they PASS each other typically. as the several melodies pass each other at different timings, chords "happen" to be formed. They are typically not "chords made" as you normally think of them.

even when you hear chords within a solo instrument part, its multiple melody lines that "just happen to" form chord(s) at various points.

I dont seem to have the "luxury" of just figuring out a sequence of chords as in... I am in chord A, I want to go to chord B, how to get there? I can go to this chord, which shares two notes with chord A, and two notes with chord B, then I can drop the fifth to the 1st and thats the inversion of chord B, which will logically follow...

*shrugs*

in my one piece, someone pointed out a section and said "nice bit of modulation there", but I wasnt really, I dont *think* anyways, LMAO

ah well... it was worth a shot.
 
SEDstar said:
...I am in chord A, I want to go to chord B, how to get there?...
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Isn't it like gecko zzed said, that you go to using notes of the new V chord of the new key you want to be in?

That's the normal way. You're in C using the notes of the scale of C, and you want to go the key of D. So you use the notes of an A7 chord, which is the V of D, and that leads you to the key of D.

When you said "I feel i am missing something, likely very basic" I think that the above might be it.
 
Another approach is to write the melody (the single line) then find the accompaniment to go with it.

Partly what Gecko/Dintymoore are saying. The notes of the V7 can help you resolve to D major, but how you move through them to establish the new tonal centre is about the melody not necessarily the chords or accompaniment.

Also you need to consider the effect/emotion you wish to evoke as you move to the new key to move via A7 to D is a lot more jarring then moving to Bb via F7. All of this can also be made smoother or rougher be using extension on basic triad. If you are looking at orchestration, then you should be considering how the top end instrumentation, a sudden bass shift of the root note or a variety of chord inversion might shaping the accompaniment and therefore how well it might move to another key.

I think it all starts with melody though – the chords can always be found later
 
Whatmysay said:
I think it all starts with melody though – the chords can always be found later
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It's hard to argue with this, because I would agree that the melody is at the heart of a composition, and I also agree that the chord can be found later . . . but . . .

The chords that provide the scaffolding for a melody can have a big impact on the movement of that melody. For any melody you choose, there are the chords that fit most 'obviously', but there are also others that can push the song into an unexpected direction.
 
gecko zzed said:
It's hard to argue with this, because I would agree that the melody is at the heart of a composition, and I also agree that the chord can be found later . . . but . . .

The chords that provide the scaffolding for a melody can have a big impact on the movement of that melody. For any melody you choose, there are the chords that fit most 'obviously', but there are also others that can push the song into an unexpected direction.
Click to expand...

I agree, it is the dialogue between the potential melody and the potential arrangement that makes it also unpredictable and exciting.
 
Everyone so far has been talking about using secondary dominants to modulate, which is a great way to do it.

Also, pivot chords are a nice way to modulate. Pivot chords are those that can be found in both keys.

For example, if you're in the key of C, and you want to move to the key of F, you have several chords that are common between those two keys:

C, Dm, F, and Am

You could use one of those chords as a "pivot chord" and follow it with a chord in the key of F as you modulate. For example, you might do this:

| C | G | F | Am |


| Bb | C | F ||


And you're in F. In this case, the pivot chords would be F and Am. And you could analyze it like this:
| C | G | F | Am | Bb | C | F ||
Key of C: I V IV vi
Key of F: I iii IV V I

If you made the second C a C7, it would be even stronger, but that's not even necessary. That would also then be a secondary dominant technically, but it would have occurred after an already non-diatonic chord (Bb).
 
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