Micing cabs vs. Amp Simulators

[DrewPeterson7]

You guys talk like Line6 makes the only modelers and that is the only method...while there are great analog modelers like the Tech21 stuff.

And learning Mic position doesnt have to be difficult...there are plenty of good books out there that will tell you exactly what you need to know about that...just get one and study it.

I own, and adore, a Tech-21 Trademark 30. That amp kicks ass. The "speaker simulation" is pretty crap though, so I never use it as a DI.

Also, calling it a "modeler" feels wrong, since they seem to be doing something a bit different from Line6 and Johnson and their ilk.

Also, IMO there's a world of difference between "knowing how to mic an amp" and "following instructions in a book." Mic position is the most powerful form of EQ you have for a guitar, and really knowing how to use it (FWIW, I don't even think I'm that good at this yet) can really make or break an engineer/mix.

 

[GONZO-X]

Palmer PDI-09

 

[darrin_h2000]

Also, IMO there's a world of difference between "knowing how to mic an amp" and "following instructions in a book." Mic position is the most powerful form of EQ you have for a guitar, and really knowing how to use it (FWIW, I don't even think I'm that good at this yet) can really make or break an engineer/mix.

Its knowing what techniques work and which ones dont that is important here...there isnt a textbook on this...just a bunch of engineers that are successful sharing thier knowledge on the subject...Ill learn from thier videos and other tutorials too...but I found that Bob Clearmountains book is the one that I found most useful when I set out to learn mic placement.

And I also have that same trademark 30...one of the best purchases you can make for your studio...it lives in the iso cabinet.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Its knowing what techniques work and which ones dont that is important here...there isnt a textbook on this...just a bunch of engineers that are successful sharing thier knowledge on the subject...Ill learn from thier videos and other tutorials too...but I found that Bob Clearmountains book is the one that I found most useful when I set out to learn mic placement.

And I also have that same trademark 30...one of the best purchases you can make for your studio...it lives in the iso cabinet.

It's so quiet, I don't even see the point of the iso cab. I still use my Recto for 99% of all tracking (it's more "open" sounding), but the Trademark is great for the occasional overdub (the tweed clean rules, for example).

 

[darrin_h2000]

People should know more about analog modeling...with that amp I have a Fender Tweed...a Marshall...a Mesa Boogie...all in one box...saves a ton of space Id have to store amps in.

I have thought about building an iso cab for bass...but Id have to find the right amp to fit inside...since we all monitor with headphones bass might as well go direct in...the tech 21 also does a great SVT simulation too.

 

[Farview]

The iso cabinet sounds like a good choice for you then...I dont have the space for a seperate Drum room and an iso booth...Id only record guitars with mics...so I have to make do with a cab...but I still think that bass through a sansamp gives me better results than miking an amp.

That's fine. My only point was that everyone's opinion is shaped by their own individual situation and needs. The sound I need for the project I'm doing now will only come from micing a blue line svt through a 4x10 cabinet at a relavively high volume in a decent sized room.
That is the only way to get the results I need. The results you need obviously come from what you do. Neither of our procedures will necessarily work for someone else.

That was my point.

 

[oretez]

you are mixing two concept in my opinion. flexibility and sound quality. Even if all the amp models are average in, let say, the podxt, this is still 70+ amps that you have at your finger tips with sh*t load of effects VS a 2 channel amp.

furthermore, you wont convince me that a 300$ amp, let alone the other proper equipment required, will give me a better recording sound than my podxt (and I'm not talking about the hassle of getting the proper environement, positioning of the mics, etc.).

Is analog better than modeling sound wise ? I believe yes, of course. But the best sound quality comes at a price, time and patience that some can't affort.

as with everything else it depends on context, content.

I have used amp simulators (Tonelabs, J-Station, Amplitube principally) Oh, and redbox and sans amp back in the day (still use Tech21 bass sans amp) and at times for reasons other then budget and theoretic ease. On the J-Station after saving 50-60 setups, each of which would still need to be 'tweaked' for individual sessions I stopped saving new step-ups . . . using a J-Station other then for sketches (to not wake the kids) was never easier then mic'ng a cabinet

With any reasonably OK guitar and amp (neither have to be mega thousand $ models) you will actually have a greater range of sound (to create the initial file, what you do in post is another issue) then possible to achieve via any hardware amp simulator that is not then run through an amp & speakers. Simulators provide broad stroke coarse detail but by very nature of the process lack fine, subtle adjustment. No amp simulator of which I'm aware employs hundreds of individual samples per model and selects among them dynamically as you play. (If there is one then some of my assertions regarding limitations of simulators would need additional research)

I still think amp simulators can be valuable tools. But not only do they not sound like their theoretic sources but they also do not achieve similar goals. A goal of a typical guitar amplifier is to interact with it's 3D environment . .. that environment is a necessary part to 'its' sound. If you desire to exclude that environment simulators are certainly an effective tool.

Personally I found it took just as long to learn to play the amp as it did to learn to play guitar (a process by no means over). While knowing how to play amp & guitar is not imperative to learning how to mic and record amp & guitar . . . for me it got easier to achieve 'better' recorded sounds for others the more I learned about amp & guitar (I still fail utterly to capture the sound I hear in my head on my own material!). . . now drums! well that's another story

 

[DrewPeterson7]

No amp simulator of which I'm aware employs hundreds of individual samples per model and selects among them dynamically as you play. (If there is one then some of my assertions regarding limitations of simulators would need additional research)

Well, they don't really "sample" a sound and recreate it, but most claim to model the interaction of various amp components, and process your sound in that manner. The veracity of this is of course questionable - anyone who's ever played a real Rectifier and a modeled one will tell you the EQ works VERY differently on the Line6 than it does on the Mesa, which is a problem for me because I like the sounds you get from a Recto when it's not set to sound like the "classic rectifier sound." Likewise, with the very recent exception of the AxeFX (which I haven't played, but seems to be a cut above anything from Line6), no one even pretends to give you control over the amount of poweramp distortion.

 

[Zaphod B]

Well, they don't really "sample" a sound and recreate it, but most claim to model the interaction of various amp components, and process your sound in that manner. The veracity of this is of course questionable -

I can tell you that it is technically feasible. The rest of it depends on how much money you throw at solutions.

 

[darrin_h2000]

They call those guitar synths when they sample and adjust for pitch...lol.
I have a Yamaha EZ-EG that I like to use to control synths with.

 

[Roguetitan]

If I am recording someone else I mic their amp and record their effects but if it is my own stuff I record DI then reamp the DI track this way I can experiment with different amp simulators or whatever suits my fancy for the mood I am in

 

[ocnor]

Remember when humbucker pickups first came out? Obviously humbucking pickups are complete crap because they don't have the sparkle of the original single coil pickups. That's why I sold all my stock on Gibson before that "Les Paul" nonsense took the whole company down the drain.

Remember when CDs first came out? All the purists refused to give up vinyl because the digital format sounded too harsh. Based on that insight, I sold all my stock in Philips so that I didn't lose all my money in the huge commercial failure of the Compact Disc.

Remember when file format compression came out? All the purists refused to listen because they sound so horrible. Thank my lucky stars that I sold all of my Apple stock so that I didn't lose all my money in the huge commercial failure known as the iPod.

It seems to me that the relevant question should be for the typical homerecording.com reader, is amp modeling technology comparable to micing a cabinet? We all seem to agree that micing a cabinet is 1) more complicated, and 2) can produce better results. Therefore, it sounds like the typical homerecording.com reader would probably enjoy dabbling in amp modeling while they learn how to properly mic a cabinet. To say that modeling is useless in that context is absurd.

But then again, these are the same guys who hated humbucking pickups, hated CDs, and hated the iPod. You gotta take that advice with a huge grain of salt.

It appears that ejaculationNinja gave me neg rep for "just being a jerk". I guess that he's too much of a wimp say anything to me in front of everyone else. If he had actually taken the time to read he would have seen that several posters agreed with at least 1 or more of my original conclusions. They just weren't as blunt as I am.
Your post on the other hand makes you sound like an idiot. Your incoherent ramblings about "humbuckers" "CDs" and "ipods" have no relevance to this topic.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

It appears that ejaculationNinja gave me neg rep for "just being a jerk". I guess that he's too much of a wimp say anything to me in front of everyone else. If he had actually taken the time to read he would have seen that several posters agreed with at least 1 or more of my original conclusions. They just weren't as blunt as I am.
Your post on the other hand makes you sound like an idiot. Your incoherent ramblings about "humbuckers" "CDs" and "ipods" have no relevance to this topic.

Tact goes a long way, though, as a guy who agrees with you.

I'm with you on the Humbuckers, CD's, and iPods bit too - I couldn't quite find the right way to put it into words, but I know a ton of contemporary guys who still prefer singlecoils to humbuckers for at least some things, and serious audiophile nutjobs still buy vinyl. Much like modeling as opposed to a real tube amp, there's certainly grounds for arguing that any of those are not "upgrades."

 

[RejectionNinja]

Line6 amp sims sound absolutely nothing like a real amp. They are buzzy, lifeless,and one dimensional sounding. You should hear a huge difference when micing an amp.

So either:
A. you are tonedeaf
B. your amp sucks
C. you don't know how to mic an amp correctly
D. one or more of the above apply

You're simply being a jerk, and when someone gives you a negative rep on an internet message board, you throw a fit like a 4 year old girl.

 

[Mike_J]

See, that's a great example of how to help someone in an internet forum.


..........

And this is a great example of how NOT to give advice on the internet.

Exactly what I was thinking.

 

[ocnor]

You're simply being a jerk, and when someone gives you a negative rep on an internet message board, you throw a fit like a 4 year old girl.

Since when does telling the truth make someone a jerk? You seem to be very confused. Maybe you should try turning around and acting like the horses head for a change.
Here is a quote from the OP:

Right now I just use the Line 6 amp sims. To my ears, there has not been much differences in the tone of these vs. micing

So according to you that statement sounds perfectly logical?

Facts:
1. a very large percentage of the world population is tonedeaf
2. many people own crappy amps
3. when it comes to mic'ing amps many people have a lack of skill

Those facts are 100% accurate so I stick by my original assessment.

 

[RejectionNinja]

Since when does telling the truth make someone a jerk?

Very often. You'll learn that after you start getting interested in girls. By the way, nobody accused you of telling the truth.

You seem to be very confused. Maybe you should try turning around and acting like the horses head for a change.

No, I said you were acting like a jerk, and it looks like a deadly accurate observation.

Those facts are 100% accurate so I stick by my original assessment.

But nobody accused you of telling the truth. I accused you of acting like a jerk, and your response is to act like a jerk. And, ironically, to say that I'm the one who is confused here.

Have a good one.

 

[ShredRocket]

hmm - I thought this thread was about "Micing cabs vs. Amp Simulators" not about "ocnor vs. RejectionNinja"

Either way..
I would prefer to mic my amps, but typically I may use ampsims such as DIG and BIG from acmebargig - for free ampsims they do a great tone and sound IMO.

 

[Mike_J]

IMO Micing is an art and I'm still struggling with it. This weekend I'm going to try double micing a guitar using a borrowed condenser mic and my old Shure 57.

 

[billrhp2]

experienced line 6er

I've used Line6 equipment for a long time, and it can be great in the studio. Currently I reocord guitar in 3 main different ways, and line 6 has a part in each of them...
1. Direct in then processed using Pod Farm...
I find that this technique works well for special efx. Not the best tone for dirty hard rock guitars.
2. E609 plus I5 on Cab. Amp is Line 6 Vetta2
This technique offers a wide range of sounds is much better than the di for crunch tones, but is alot noisier, and since my studio is in my room @ my parents house, I have a hard time getting the levels up high enough and my recordings end up a lil noisy, although they have a nice tone.

3. Line 6 Pod Xt-live into Crate V33 clean channel. cab mic'd the same as above.
This is currently my favorite technique, because I get the warmth of a tube amp being played in a real live room with mics, and I get the felxibility of the modeling that line 6 offers. I run into the same noise problems as option 2, but for the most part, this seams to be the best technique...

I guess as far as Modelers vs. micing, I'd have to say Micing... It justs seems to have more life, but modeling definitely is a great tool to have in a studio for efx, and/or further processing of your signal. Sometimes, when I want a real dirty tone, I will mic my amps, then process the signal with a modeled fuzz box, or something similair.