Tube amps on a budget...

[famous beagle]

amplifiers are THE most controversial music topic on the net, aren't they?

You probably got that right.

It's such a subjective thing, tone.

Some people love Metallica's tone; I hate it --- early Metallica especially. Some people love Santana's tone; I don't like it or his playing.

Some people hate Tom Petty's/Mike Campbell's tones; I love them. Some people hate Rich Robinson's (Black Crowes) tone; it sounds like god to me.

go figure

 

[strangedogs]

amplifiers are THE most controversial music topic on the net, aren't they?

you said it

 

[Gear_Junky]

yup, and some people think that major recording studios are a gauge of good tone, but they are partly to blame (also producers AND listeners, I don't know who else) for today's soul-less, sterile, mind-numbing "hi fi" music industry.

You can hear that these groups [insert names here] have some of the best tube amps, but what they do with them is so sad and uninspiring.

But "Generation TXT" seems to like it. They like it all. Portable video-game music all day long.

I once asked a friend's teenage daughter - what kind of music she likes. The answer was - "the kind that just came out". [/rant]

 

[Lt. Bob]

Orange is releasing a Tiny Terror Combo: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kq8IshRNuis

That sounds awesome, how much do you think it'll go for?
And are the terrors pedal friendly?

I use my Tiny Terror regularly to gig with for smaller clubs ...... it sounds really nice thru a Celestion Vintage 30 ...... actually sounds better than my Mesa Blue Angel in a small room.
They are VERY pedal friendly ..... I mean, the little bastard just screams.
It doesn't do sparkly clean though so it's not for country ..... you could make it work but that's not its' strength.

as for amps being dated ...... I'm sure that's true to some extent but I can take basically ANY decent amp and make it sound at least acceptable.
Well .... maybe except my Blues Junior .......

 

[ggunn]

I have a Peavey Classic. Not what I would call great tone.

But that's just the thing, innit? What you would call great tone and what I would call great tone are not necessarily the same tone.

 

[strangedogs]

I've been "chasing" tone since the late 60's... In the 70's I had a Marshall 100-watt Superlead (1970 model) and used an old Fender Bassman bottom with 2-15" Electrovoice EVM-200's with it. That was probably the finest tone I could imagine. Wish I still had it... but then again it may not sound the same now.

TONE is so subjective. Sometimes I think I "nailed it" - and everything sounds amazing but a day later it's just "not there"... not sure what that's all about?

When I think of TONE I think of David Gilmour. Tone is probably more in the fingers than in the stuff we all have wired together 'eh? I mean I could take Gilmour's rig or Claptons, etc and still sound like ME - they could take my cheapassed stuff and probably still sound like THEM!

 

[MatchBookNotes]

You probably got that right.

It's such a subjective thing, tone.

Some people love Metallica's tone; I hate it --- early Metallica especially. Some people love Santana's tone; I don't like it or his playing.

Some people hate Tom Petty's/Mike Campbell's tones; I love them. Some people hate Rich Robinson's (Black Crowes) tone; it sounds like god to me.

go figure

+1 for you. Metallica suck! (they're competent musicians their sounds are horrible to me)... Tom Petty(saw him year before last) and the black crowes(going to see them in sept) are tones i love to death.

 

[strangedogs]

Campbell is amazing...

 

[Toker41]

You wanna know what a dated amp sounds like? It's a Mesa Boogie Mark IV. That's the sound of the 80s ... and not in a good way.

I actually prefer the Mark IV over the Rectifier. However, the Rectifier is way more versatile, and has a better clean tone.


When I say the Peavey classic sounds dated, I mean that it sounds like a garage band from the early 80's when the market was flooded with them at that level. It was one of my first amps, and looking back, it was a waste of money due to the fact that once my ears became more "trained", I realized it was simply not good tone, and understood exactly what kind of amp it was....a budget, garage, beginners, kids amp. It is simply a fact that the Peavey classic is simply not a professional piece of gear....and for good reason. If I had bought a Boogie, or Marshall instead of the Peavey I would still have it (the Peavey classic I own now is not the same amp I had then).

 

[Toker41]

But that's just the thing, innit? What you would call great tone and what I would call great tone are not necessarily the same tone.

This is true to a point. However, a thin tone with overdrive that sounds more like transistor distortion can not be compared to a thick crunchy warm tone. I don't have to like a tone for it to be good. I have recorded a lot of amps that had tone I didn't like, but I still understood it was a good tone....I just didn't like it. Also, I'm not talking about just good metal tone, or clean tone, or blues tone. I am very well rounded in the types of music I play, and record from Country, to pop, to death metal, where most people are talking about one tone for one purpose when they talk about amps. That is why I recommend Mesa not only for tone, but versatility. Most amps have one good tone, and then you can get some ok tones for other things. Mesa's are the most versatile amps I have ever come across.

However, I must say that with all my experience, I have never played through, or recorded an Orange amp. I would love to try one, as I've yet to hear anything bad said about them (except for the price).

 

[Toker41]

How can the tone of a tube amp be dated? I guess people shouldn't play through a Vox AC30, Fender Twin, or Marshall Super Lead. Those amps are way older than a Peavey classic so their tone must really be dated. Everyone should just throw away those old nasty vintage amps and buy brand new overpriced Mesa Boogie amps.

Don't even try to compare the Peavey to those other amps you list. Not even in the same league. There is professional grade gear, and there is amateur kid stuff. Peavey certainly fits into the later.

Again, if you insist on a "budget amp" check out a Peavey VTM60, or VTM120.
Add a BBE to the loop to thicken, and warm it a bit (hear comes another bashing, I'm sure), and for under $500 (used) you have a half stack that is good for recording, and plenty loud enough for live bands.

 

[Toker41]

yup, and some people think that major recording studios are a gauge of good tone, but they are partly to blame (also producers AND listeners, I don't know who else) for today's soul-less, sterile, mind-numbing "hi fi" music industry.

You can hear that these groups [insert names here] have some of the best tube amps, but what they do with them is so sad and uninspiring.

But "Generation TXT" seems to like it. They like it all. Portable video-game music all day long.

[/rant]

These days they usually over compress them (think Evanescence). They also use so much overdrive, and distortion that the guitar almost gets lost in the mix, and the drums, and bass are more up front, and carrying the melody, while the guitars end up filling space instead of being in your face.


BTW...if you don't like todays music.....your simply too old.

 

[Toker41]

I've been "chasing" tone since the late 60's... In the 70's I had a Marshall 100-watt Superlead (1970 model) and used an old Fender Bassman bottom with 2-15" Electrovoice EVM-200's with it. That was probably the finest tone I could imagine. Wish I still had it... but then again it may not sound the same now.

TONE is so subjective. Sometimes I think I "nailed it" - and everything sounds amazing but a day later it's just "not there"... not sure what that's all about?

When I think of TONE I think of David Gilmour. Tone is probably more in the fingers than in the stuff we all have wired together 'eh? I mean I could take Gilmour's rig or Claptons, etc and still sound like ME - they could take my cheapassed stuff and probably still sound like THEM!

See, now we agree on something. Gilmour is one of my favs. Always has been, even through my "metal" years. Can do more with one note than Stevie Via can with 24 frets on 2 necks.

If you read a few post back, you will see my story about Ted Nugent playing through EVH's rig, and being surprised that he still sounded like Ted Nugent.


The Superlead was a great amp in it's time. Don't have much use for it today, though. Hard to find one that doesn't buzz, and hum, and by todays standards they are a bit thin. My main problem with any Marshall amp I've ever played through is need to add a ton of outboard gear to thicken up the bottom end, and the lack of clarity in the overdrive. The Rectifier's with EL34's, and a little compression does Marshall better than Marshall, and the wheels don't break off the cabinets like every damn Marshall with their pressed particle board cabinets.
Boogies are hand made, and built like a tank. Also, try to get anything that slightly resembles customer service from Marshall.

 

[famous beagle]

These days they usually over compress them (think Evanescence). They also us so much overdrive, and distortion that the guitar almost gets lost in the mix, and the drums, and bass are more up front, and carrying the melody, while the guitars end up filling space instead of being in your face.


BTW...if you don't like todays music.....your simply too old.

You actually hit on the main point that I don't like about Mesa's sound. It's designed around preamp tube gain (cascading gain stages), as opposed to power amp tube overdrive. Obviously, since then they've come out with some amps that aren't like that (or I would think so), but that preamp gain is what I don't like about that classic Mesa tone.

When they came out, everyone heard how much gain was possible and jumped on board with master volumes and preamp gain. Those were the first kind of tube amps I played through: Boogies, Riveras, and the like.

It wasn't until I played through an old 65 blackfaced bassman and tweed bassman that I realized what true good guitar tone, IMHO, sounded like.

I'm not one of those vintage-only nuts---I'm building my own amps now (mostly clones) that I love---but those simple circuits of the early amps are the key to good tone in my opinion. The more stages it goes through and complexity, as found in the Boogie model, the more the tone suffers. Again ... this is my opinion.

 

[Toker41]

You wanna know what a dated amp sounds like? It's a Mesa Boogie Mark IV. That's the sound of the 80s ... and not in a good way.

No, the Marshall JCM800 is the sound of the '80's. Most hair bands were using them which is one of the reasons I started using Boogie. Didn't care to sound like everyone esle.

 

[ggunn]

Don't even try to compare the Peavey to those other amps you list. Not even in the same league. There is professional grade gear, and there is amateur kid stuff. Peavey certainly fits into the later.

You know, if you tried real hard, I think you could get even a little more condescending... ;^)

Heck, I don't own a Peavey amp, but I've heard plenty of them on stage around here, and some even get what I would call a really decent tone. What you have given us is your opinion, nothing more, and you're entitled to it. It ain't absolute.

 

[famous beagle]

See, now we agree on something. Gilmour is one of my favs. Always has been, even through my "metal" years. Can do more with one note than Stevie Via can with 24 frets on 2 necks.

If you read a few post back, you will see my story about Ted Nugent playing through EVH's rig, and being surprised that he still sounded like Ted Nugent.


The Superlead was a great amp in it's time. Don't have much use for it today, though. Hard to find one that doesn't buzz, and hum, and by todays standards they are a bit thin. My main problem with any Marshall amp I've ever played through is need to add a ton of outboard gear to thicken up the bottom end, and the lack of clarity in the overdrive. The Rectifier's with EL34's, and a little compression does Marshall better than Marshall, and the wheels don't break off the cabinets like every damn Marshall with their pressed particle board cabinets.
Boogies are hand made, and built like a tank. Also, try to get anything that slightly resembles customer service from Marshall.

Gotta disagree on that one. I love Gilmour, but if you think Vai's playing is not emotive, then ... I guess we have different ears of something.

Sure, he plays fast sometimes, but if you don't hear the emotion in his playing, then I don't know what to say. He can be quirky as hell, sensitive, fiery, funny, and spacey. He's one the most emotive players I know.

You may not like what he's emoting, but to say he doesn't "do anything" with notes, I just have to assume you've listened to very little of him.

Anyway .. off topic.

 

[famous beagle]

No, the Marshall JCM800 is the sound of the '80's. Most hair bands were using them which is one of the reasons I started using Boogie. Didn't care to sound like everyone esle.

The hair bands were using them, but the studio guys were using Boogies. That's the sound I don't like: that glossy Mark IV tone.

 

[JR#97]

As an aside, I have NO idea why more people don't build hybrids this way. The power section is really where tube amps come into their own...

Musicman amps.

Marshall Artist 3203 Head
Marshall Artist 4203 Combo

 

[soundchaser59]

amplifiers are THE most controversial music topic on the net, aren't they?

followed closely by chinese mics....