How do I do it? Print with eq and dynamics or???

[sweetbeats]

So I've got a professional-demo project for which I'm trying to get my 58-OB up and fully-functioning (including sync functions), and the project is looming so I'm starting to think of some tracking details.

The client is a female vocalist with a tremendous voice. She also plays piano. I have secured a couple musicians to cover el. guitar and bass, and I'll be contributing drums. So there is the instrumentation lineup, and, not having had the benefit of the atr on past projects I'm faced with the age-old dilemma of whether or not to print to tape with eq and dynamics, or to introduce that when tracks are being transferred to the DAW. I will be transferring all tracks to the DAW for four reasons:

1. limited track count on the 58 alone for what we have decided to track
2. no analog summing or mixdown device (my mixer is the Yamaha 01X which is a digital mixer) and, um, no money.
3. no analog mastering device either
4. we are looking at producing a couple very different mixes/arrangements, which will be much more feasible in the DAW for me editing-wise just based on my experience.

I'm stating this just so you all understand (since this IS the Analog Only forum) that I'm open to tracking and mastering in the analog domain exclusively, but I haven't the gear or experience to do it well, and there are specific elements that I desire to use in the DAW.

So there you have the instrumentation and the coarse production methodology.

I realize this is probably a plenty discussed topic, but I'm interested in opinions/suggestions since this is my first (albeit small) project using analog tracking. I feel I have a good sense for where/how to use my gear when tracking to a digital medium, but I sense analog tracking is very different in terms of what are the most logical/beneficial best-practices.

Now...I have two Tascam PE-40 parametric eq's. I don't get the sense that these are really sought after units for their sound, but in my humble studio they are pretty slick for front-end analog eq. For those that aren't familiar with these, each PE-40 has four discreet channels of 4-band fully parametric eq with two hi-pass filters and one low-pass filter. They operate at -10dBu. I also have 3 ART TCS two-channel dynamics processors. Quality-wise the TCS units work for me. Are there better? Certainly, but I do not belong or "hang" at the gearslutz high-end forum, and I've been happy with the bang-for-the-buck" on the these units. The TCS is a very flexible processor with which I've gotten some pleasing results.

Dynamically the piece goes from open calm and spacious in the beginning to full-band slam at the end.

My instinct is to:

1. leave the guitar totally alone and reamp later
2. mildly compress the bass (no eq...the bass player I'm using has a great sound that works really well "out-of-the-box" in a lot of different settings)
3. leave the piano alone and be really smart about mic placement
4. kick...I'm going to be using a double-mic setup on the kick...Audix D-6 at the end of a tunnel out front with compression and the low-pass filter (15kHz) inline and a narrow band cut at around 200Hz...the second mic, an SM-57 pointed right at the beater contact point, compression and the 150Hz hi-pass filter inline. I'll experiment on the eq during setup, but that's where I'm going to start.
5. Snare...not sure yet whether I'm double-mic'ing or single, and which mic(s) I'm going to use. I'm anticipating that I will track with some compression though.
6. Toms...not sure yet what I'm doing here...depends on how many tracks I have left, but if I do close mic toms it will be with 57's and I'm imagining some mild compression.
7. Overheads...nothing, and I'll be investing some time to get a good placement.
8. Last but not least, voice...and this is the really critical one as far as I'm concerned...No eq for sure, but possibly some de-essing? Or just leave it totally alone?

All right...let me have it!!!

 

[FALKEN]

ok I am going to bestow upon you the secret to everything.

compress the low end.

 

[mamm7215]

Hey, good luck on your demo! Sounds like a sweet setup, you should be able to get a nice sound. Given your setup I would track the drums/bass to the 8 and then dump to the DAW. Then, record everything else to the DAW. Big fat rhythm section will carry a LOT and you then you can mix/eq/master in DAW. Maybe slam a stereo master down to tape after for extra fatness...light low end compression on the rhythm section but don't squish it...sound OK? Am I getting at what you're looking for?

 

[sweetbeats]

I forgot to mention that I'm probably going to be using the pre's on my Presonus Digimax FS...the Digimax has really clean pre's...no mojo, but clean, and insert points on all 8 pre's, phantom switchable in groups of 4 and direct outs on all 8 as well, so its nice for tracking to tape, and even tracking simultaneously to the DAW via the ADAT out. Part of me would like to use my Tascam MX-80 rackmount preamp...I *think* it uses the same pre's as the 300 or 300b series consoles...it has a really great broadcast-ey character which may work really well for certain things, but there are no insert points per se, and the output is -10dBu and I don't have a dedicated line converter so I'd be jury-rigging something up to deal with that and I don't want to go there so...It would be another thing to just use the unbalanced -10dBu inputs on the 58, but I'm calibrating the deck using the +4dBu balanced inputs.

 

[sweetbeats]

Falken and mamm7215,

Thanks for the suggestions. Both your posts are helpful.

Both of you referred to compressing the low-end. Are you talking about splitting the signal from one full-range signal to two signals; one low-pass and one hi-pass? And then effecting the low-pass signal only, recombining and printing to tape from there? Or using the compressor's detector (sidechain) loop and heightening the compressor's sensitivity to the low-end?

mamm7215, I'll have 7 tracks which with to work. Track 8 will be carrying timecode. That is one reason I'm doing a little more mental juggling on how I want to mic the kit for this project. When tracking straight to the DAW I have 16-24 track simultaneous with which to work. Sometimes I'd have different combinations of mics setup for certain parts of the kit anticipating that, in the end, only 1 of the two mics on that part of the kit would be used in mixing. I don't recommend this approach unless you're just not sure what you are doing! So this will be good to work with 7 tracks to encourage me to take more care at the tracking stage...to dig a little deeper, but I'm still really unsettled with certain mic'ing schemes. I'm really happy with the kick setup, and I'm happy with the overhead mics I use and am comfortable/pleased with about 2 or 3 different configurations for different settings. Toms, as well, I've had some luck recently with some positioning that has brought me better results. Snare drum is really the sticky-wicket. At church we have a budget set of mics on that kit, and because of the room and the mic characteristics we ended up mic'ing the snare drum somewhat unconventionally with the single dynamic from underneath pointed right at the center of the bottom head/snare wires. Sounds terrible in the cans but great in the room. Worked out equally well for the CD we recently produced as I used Crown PZM's to strategically mic the room and used that for ambiance...dialing in the room helped the snare track from sounding...um...terrible. But that doesn't work in the studio. In the studio I've traditionally stuck a 57 on the snare angled toward the batter head blah-blah-blah, but that has gotten pretty tiring and because my snare, which is a 10-ply maple 13" x 7" that I built, is pretty dry, poppy and woody, that character gets excentuated by the 57 and I lose the cushiness of the snare wires because they are relatively far away from the mic. Great for reggae, rimshot pop and cut, but my client's piece is going to build to there and I need something more musical in the beginning...so I'll see. May need to use a different drum which I, um...have a couple.

Bass I'm happy with as I mentioned.

Voice...I've got a mic that I'm friends with and I know how it will treat the clients voice, so it is really just a question of what, if anything, I may want to do on the way to tape, and what might end up being a total faux pas. I definitely want to track her to tape vs. going direct to the DAW.

 

[mamm7215]

mmmm, digimaxFS, mmmmm
The insert points on the FS are extremely handy, and you should be able to mic a kit with 7. In my mind I see kind of a "hard way around" or simply what I would do is...
record drums first with one mic setup, do another with another setup, both to tape, then to DAW. Play all other tracks to DAW with the exception of bass on track 1 or 8 for fatness. Maybe go through the FS for compressor insert, and oh yeah, I only meant compress the bass guitar and kick, maybe toms, light on snare, almost none or none on snare and cymbals and rooms (just how I like it, tight and big). I use some overall compression on the mix, finalizing eq and limiting and then slam back to tape for stereo master. Or not. Some of my songs EXPLODE sonically in an awesome way when I do this, a couple I couldn't make sound better than my straight DAW mix. Hope this helps.

 

[sweetbeats]

I use some overall compression on the mix, finalizing eq and limiting and then slam back to tape for stereo master. Or not.

Yes. I have a regimen for mastering processing that I use inside the DAW that has been honed over a couple CD projects that works really well for me. A really great Yamaha mastering multiband dynamics plugin and some spatial enhancing for certain types of material. Very selective mastering eq as well.

Can't or won't master to tape because all I have is the narrow format 58 and 48 decks, which I'm told are not the greatest mastering decks...half the tape real estate of even a 1/4" half-track, but I have been working on a way to master through an A/D/A loop using the TCS compressors as an analog stereo 3-band compressor...split it in the DAW into low, mid and hi stereo bands with selective frequency points (6 or 18 dB/octave) and then back to the DAW and recombine...I'm going to experiment. Phase distortion issues may ruin the effort and I've got to devise some tests to see how that may play out. I used to be so militant though about keeping it digital once its digital, like converting the digital audio to analog and back to digital again at any point was just bad news, but I've been doing some reading that has opened my mind up a bit to that. There are bad things that can happen in that process, equipment dependent, but there are good things that can happen too, and your ears can tell you if the good outweighs the bad.

At any rate, my initial experiments have garnered more natural results than the plugin.

Play all other tracks to DAW with the exception of bass

Hmm...I've got to get her voice to tape though...see, that's why I'm focused on getting the DAW and the atr sync'ed over SMPTE. If I track the drums to tape with a pre-determined sync relationship going between the atr and the DAW, then I can transfer analog tracks to the DAW and, being careful about my offset in the synchronizer and setting appropriate locate points, record at a later time on tape to what was already transferred while still keeping the original tape tracks and transfer subsequent tracks to the DAW without having to line tracks up in the DAW.

That way I can put as many tracks to tape as will fit on the length of tape, and have them conveniently accessible and synchronized by setting up identical locate points in the DAW and on the atr autolocator. I won't have to worry about track limit beyond what will fit sequentially on tape. It would be similar to the concept of virtual tracks on a digital multitrack recorder or DAW...I'd have 7 tracks available at a time, but other takes would be available by calling up locator points and setting different offset points which the ES-50 (and I imagine any decent synchronizer) can easily do. It would be about...mmm...5 keystrokes on the autolocator to pull up the locate point and set the offset for a previous set of tracks. Zero the position of the DAW, locate the atr, and press chase.

So that's what I'm thinking. My mental juggling with mic'ing the kit isn't over how to fit everything I want onto 8 tracks, its how to fit the kit onto 7. On a 2500' reel of tape I figure I can, for a song of about 3 minutes, fit comfortably 8 "takes" of 7 tracks each...that's 56 tracks total, any set of 7 available at a time and easily located and slaved to the DAW, which I run off of the Digimax Jet PLL clock. I could do several drum takes, and other takes of guitar, bass, voice, piano, some vocal overdubs...even if I recorded the guitar in stereo or the piano in stereo (which I plan to do anyway), different mic'ing schemes for the voice, I could have those grouped in 7 track "sets" and easily call them up and play back in sync with the project as it builds in the DAW. That way, everything could be tracked to the 58 if so desired, and then transferred to the DAW in blocks. I don't plan on using a whole roll of tape though...maybe a quarter or a third of the roll. I also may simultaneously track to the DAW for backup, or maybe some stuff tracked to the DAW will sound better than the atr...who knows. As I go through this I'll learn a lot and know what is, and what is not necessary the next time around.

Thank you for getting my mind thinking about some of this stuff. Your input is definitely helpful. It makes sense what you are saying about "the low-end". Tighten it up with conservative dynamics processing but don't mess with the mid and upper-range source material to keep it natural.

 

[FALKEN]

what I meant was, compress the kick, compress the bass, and compress vocals. these are the three spots you are likely to have signal to noise problems (i.e., hiss)

you also asked about eq. I would only use eq if you are bouncing tracks to tape (say all the drums to one track). otherwise move the mic or something.

this is all only one man's opinion.

 

[ausrock]

Cory,

Have you thought of trying either the Recorderman's or Glyn Johns minimalistic micing approach for the drums, if you can do it you'll only need 4 or 5 mics/tracks. Personally, I'd only worry about getting the drums and main vocals to R2R and run the rest straight to the DAW. Put the time in to experiment with 1) instrument/amp positioning within the room and 2) mic placement, get these right and you can save a lot of EQing, etc.

Make sure you have good heads on the drums, if you're not happy with your snare sound consider other head options. If you cut a sharp bearing edge, maybe consider carefully rounding it off a little with some fine sandpaper, change the tuning.......experiment .......................guess who makes ply snare shells occasionally

 

[mamm7215]

Good point Ausrock, like what I was trying to say before, you don't need to get everything to tape, nor mic a drum kit with 12 mics. My mantra: remember the Beatles. Seriously. No, I'm not kidding. Nowhere NEAR the options we have now. And really, what I've also been finding with all the "mastering" choices available now, is that tracks that are recorded well and mixed well need very little mastering, in the modern home-recordist sense. Sweetbeats, you have way more than you need at your disposal to make a great record, and I suspect you have more talent at it than you think, too! You'll get it.

 

[sweetbeats]

FALKEN,

what I meant was, compress the kick, compress the bass, and compress vocals. these are the three spots you are likely to have signal to noise problems (i.e., hiss)

you also asked about eq. I would only use eq if you are bouncing tracks to tape (say all the drums to one track). otherwise move the mic or something.

Yeah. Got it. Thank you!


Ausrock,

Have you thought of trying either the Recorderman's or Glyn Johns minimalistic micing approach for the drums...

Right! Yeah, I remember reading about that somewhere along the way. In fact, it was maybe in one of their approaches, or in the midst if seeking info out that led me to their writings that hooked me on the two-mic technique for the kick with the tunnel. I will check 'em out again.

Personally, I'd only worry about getting the drums and main vocals to R2R and run the rest straight to the DAW. Put the time in to experiment with 1) instrument/amp positioning within the room and 2) mic placement, get these right and you can save a lot of EQing, etc.

Cool. Great advice. Thank you. I will have the benefit of time on this project, whereas in the past it has been, y'know...well, the project before the last we had one night for tracking drums and bass...10 songs in 10 hours tracked, no rehearsal, half the songs we hadn't even heard...the last project was all tracked live to 24-track and mic placement, front-end settings/configuration all took a serious back seat to the FOH considerations. This project is not under a deadline, and I'm looking forward to having more time for learning/experimentation.

Make sure you have good heads on the drums, if you're not happy with your snare sound consider other head options. If you cut a sharp bearing edge, maybe consider carefully rounding it off a little with some fine sandpaper, change the tuning.......experiment .......................guess who makes ply snare shells occasionally

AUSROCK!! PM me about your shells. Totally curious about your craft. What wood do you make them out of? Do have a press mold or what? I made drums for several years. I devised a system to ensure, within 0.003" that the top and bottom bearing edges of a shell were parallel to each other, flat and true, and that the bearing edges were perpendicular to the axis of the cylinder. I can cut any profile, but my preferred favorite doesn't use a bevel at all...a round-over bit on the inner cut, and a round-over bit for the counter-cut, leaving you with a rounded profile...look at the vintage drums and by this time some of them (especially the classic 3-ply maple-poplar-maple Slingerland shells with the thick center soft-wood poplar ply) have a nearly flat profile...well I found to take that, refine it, make it precise, results in a warm, full and controlled sound. That's for the toms and kick shells, but for the snare I do use a conventional 45-degree inside cut and a healthy radius counter-cut. The lugs were a design inspired by my mentor George Tuthill. George has since passed on, but was a New Jersey jazzer with a tremendous amount of theory, chops and feel...he was extremelay versatile; had the ability to teach pretty much anything, and also spent many years directing champion drum and bugle corp, and did R&D for Slingerland and Yamaha. The early Field Master series field drums from Yamaha had many of his innovations, as did the Magnum series set drums from Slingerland. The lug on the drums I used to build was a GMS inspired design, but the shell mounting point is outboard of the lug nut, which prevents the lug body from bowing and pulling away from the shell in the center which as was an issue with many high-tension lugs, which led to the triple-screw mounted lugs. So the lug design is overkill for a tom or kick, but it does provide a very strong and stable minimal contact design, and on the snare drums its great. AUGGHHH you opened the floodgate, Ausrock!!!

Heads...yeah, that's a can of worms huh? I've been really happy though with the sound and durability of the Renaissance series heads from Remo for both live and studio, especially on snare. Tuning is something I'm sure I could play with on the snare. I'm really happy with the tom tuning and kick tuning...snare is kind of a final frontier. I really like the sound of my snare for live and unmic'ed situations, but it is somewhat limited for studio work. I'll keep at it. Thank you for the encouraging words.

Seriously, though, I would love to hear more about your shells...

mamm7215

Sweetbeats, you have way more than you need at your disposal...

Wow...yes, you are totally right...I have the tendancy to overcomplicate things...that was part of my initial drive to get back into analog recording. Okay...yes...keep it simple. I'm going to need to print your post and tack it to my monitor in the studio.

Hey, seriously, thanks everybody. This was what I was hoping for, for some practical and ideological inspiration.

 

[cjacek]

Cory, I don't mean to be silent here but my approach is minimalist, to say the least, so I don't think mine would help you much. I record piano and voice and that's about it...

I always do things as simple as possible, using the least amount of gear [including mics], putting more stress on mic positioning, room [I like it pretty dead] and a tiny amount of compression [mostly just transient limiting] and effects and I rarely to never use EQ.

I rely on old time recording techniques, with performance and the other stuff mentioned above taking center stage. I love the sound of old 50's, 60's and some 70's recordings and whenever it's getting complicated, I back off.

If I were recording drums and such, I'd probably figure a way to do it with a 'minimalist' approach too. I don't really have a system and rather go 'by ear' and what I figure out on the spot but I do look to sessions of the past for ideas. The more basic, the better I can relate.

-------

 

[sweetbeats]

Daniel,

Glad you spoke up.

I really think this small project is going to stretch me.

I've learned so much from the last two projects, and each has been very unique with unique challenges. Well, I think this one is going to challenge me to simplify.

I uploaded a couple examples of recent work to my ftp site...

Have a listen folks. Enjoy or don't, but either way I'm open to critique. Like I said above circumstances have really negated the ability to take time or experiment on either of these past projects, and I've felt it in post-production...getting so far in and feeling like I'm tangled, disabling all the plugins and starting raw on more than one occasion...time consuming, but a great way to learn (i.e. coming to a roadblock and having to find yer way out).

This one was for a friend, David Swensen in the Seattle area. This is the one where we tracked bass and drums for 10 songs in 10 hours without any rehearsals or pre session study. David tracked voice and guitar in his bathroom with some generic dynamic mic and a Tascam US-122 at 16/44.1...was never supposed to be release material. Work with what you've got, right?

And this one is off of my church's recent freebie CD. 3 months from start to finish on this one...18 songs in all, all tracked live, no overdubs. Again, a real learning exercise.

Anyway, let me know what you think. Trust me, your most critical comment has already been voiced in my head many times over , but there is always more to learn...what a gift.

 

[cjacek]

Cory, I will give it a listen, in a moment but it begs to be asked.... Have you at all considered setting aside all of your [what I would call] distractions and doing your project entirely on your 8 track? No distractions, no complications, with its seeming limitations acting as a way to even more creativity. Man, I'm telling you, this whole thing is wearing you down and it need not.

----

 

[sweetbeats]

I don't want to turn my client into a guinea pig y'know?

It has been almost 15 years since I rolled analog tape and I didn't even know the difference between a TS and a TRS plug then...I didn't even know what TS and TRS meant back then!

My perceived limitations of my 3340S quickly gave way to digital technology...a Digidesign AudioMedia III card. Its been digital ever since, aside from some occasional playing around on the 424 with the kids.

I'd feel different if I knew the deck...hmm.

I'll have to think about that...

No piano onsite, and I'm *not* hauling the 58 anywhere...

Okay, Daniel...merited food for thought.

So you're suggesting no sync track, track drums to, maybe three tracks, guitar for another, bass, piano, and one for vox and then one open for vocal dubs and percussion or something...and then dump to the computer?

 

[cjacek]

Oh yeah, Cory, I'm all for getting down to basics, bouncing tracks, minimum of everything and absolutely no frills, paying special attention to room acoustics and recording technique. In fact, I make it a point to limit myself. I find it's easier and I get the sound I want faster.

-----

 

[mamm7215]

...or you could get another 48 or 58 for 16 tracks (less smpte, of course...). I know you're probably on a budget like me, but that's never stopped me before... (my wife did, though...)

 

[sweetbeats]

mamm7215,

I actually have the 58, and two 48's. One of the 48's is very low hours like my 58 and is very clean, but needs going through and I think one amp card is bad. Maybe you know this already...

Then I have a 48 'parts' deck that I picked up for cheap recently but is actually, as it appears so far, fully functional.

I've thought about getting the 'good' 48 up and running (swapping the amp card out...replacing the solenoid cushions and setting it up) and syncing, but with my schedule it took me a year and a half to get to the stage I'm at with the 58. My client would have to wait awhile!

in the future though that may be an option.

 

[mamm7215]

Right, I forgot about your other machines! Well, sounds like you know your options, but sometimes having too many options throws me a bit. But when the time comes to get something recorded, I seem to always pick the path of least resistance.

 

[sweetbeats]

Yes. Too many options. Yup-yup...and I tend to pick the path of least logistics!!