Bass is weak

[Somnium7]

Here are the dimensions of my music room.
Music Room Dimensions
L = 19' 4"
W = 11' 5"
H = 7' 10"

The room is carpeted. Walls are very thick 1/2" wainscotting. When I run this info through RealTraps ModeCalc I get the following problem modes (roughly).
145
290
440

I have Yamaha HS80 monitors with all controls set flat. They are positioned 7' 8" in from the front wall length-wise.
They face the front wall and I sit 4' 9" away from them.

My problem is that bass always seems weak sounding. It strikes me as strange considering this is a very bass-heavy room.
When I stand on top of my chair at the mixing position the bass seems twice as loud.


I'm not sure what to make of this...
Any ideas?

 

[pandamonk]

Here are the dimensions of my music room.
Music Room Dimensions
L = 19' 4"
W = 11' 5"
H = 7' 10"

The room is carpeted. Walls are very thick 1/2" wainscotting. When I run this info through RealTraps ModeCalc I get the following problem modes (roughly).
145
290
440

I have Yamaha HS80 monitors with all controls set flat. They are positioned 7' 8" in from the front wall length-wise.
They face the front wall and I sit 4' 9" away from them.

My problem is that bass always seems weak sounding. It strikes me as strange considering this is a very bass-heavy room.
When I stand on top of my chair at the mixing position the bass seems twice as loud.


I'm not sure what to make of this...
Any ideas?

What are your speakers positioned so far from the front wall? I don't really understand your explanation. Could you quickly draw it in mspaint or something?

Do you have acoustic treatment? I'd have thought, with looking at realtraps, you'd have realised this is your problem.

Without treatment, you'll have huge peaks AND nulls, which means at some areas certain frequencies will be loud or quieter. I'd suggest some bass trapping, either from a company like realtraps, or self-built.

If the carpet is the only real absorption in the room, then this leaves it really unbalanced as the carpet only really absorbs high frequencies.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

I have Yamaha HS80 monitors with all controls set flat. They are positioned 7' 8" in from the front wall length-wise.
They face the front wall and I sit 4' 9" away from them.

Monitors do NOT face the "front" wall. They face the "rear" wall. From your description, your monitoring layout is...less than optimal. In fact, your monitors AND engineering position are within a NULL zone(half wavelength of the rooms length at the frequency wavelength that matches it)
That is, IF I understand your description correctly. Is this right?
fitz

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

OOPS, I put the monitors 7'8" from the REAL front wall Sorry. No time to change it right now. I'll be back later. If intuition serves me, your monitors will be almost at the half wavelength point. Not good. In fact....terrible position.
fitZ

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hmmm, I HAD to take the time to correct "my" interpretation of your description. Just to show what is taking place. I believe.

 

[Somnium7]

Sorry for taking so long to cobble this up...

it is very rough and not to scale. But it gives you an idea.

 

[Nightfire]

Why dont you turn around your console facing the window with the absorver above, and center it as well. Then move your keys and hammond to the to the other side of the room or off to the sides. This way youll be shooting down your soundwaves in the long direction of the room in a symetric manner. Then build some corner bass traps.

Mike

 

[Somnium7]

Why dont you turn around your console facing the window with the absorver above, and center it as well. Then move your keys and hammond to the to the other side of the room or off to the sides. This way youll be shooting down your soundwaves in the long direction of the room in a symetric manner. Then build some corner bass traps.

Mike

For one thing, I was told that placing monitors with rear-firing bass ports up against a wall was a bad idea. Then there is the console issue. Placing the back of it against the wall would make it almost impossible to change connections on the back of it. It is too deep to just reach across to the back from the front and it takes four people to move it. There is the possibility of going under it to reach the back connections but then I'll need to relocate the 3 large racks of gear that live down there. If I relocated those racks up against the front wall then I have the same problem of not being able to reach the back connections.
Then there is the door on the right side, which is the main entrance to the room. Putting the console and racks on the front wall would partially block that doorway. This is a big problem.

 

[eyema_believer]

For one thing, I was told that placing monitors with rear-firing bass ports up against a wall was a bad idea. Then there is the console issue. Placing the back of it against the wall would make it almost impossible to change connections on the back of it. It is too deep to just reach across to the back from the front and it takes four people to move it. There is the possibility of going under it to reach the back connections but then I'll need to relocate the 3 large racks of gear that live down there. If I relocated those racks up against the front wall then I have the same problem of not being able to reach the back connections.
Then there is the door on the right side, which is the main entrance to the room. Putting the console and racks on the front wall would partially block that doorway. This is a big problem.

New monitors and a few patch bays, and you can re-locate your desk.

Just a thought!

~Shawn

 

[Obi-Wan zenabI]

Sorry for taking so long to cobble this up...

it is very rough and not to scale. But it gives you an idea.

Not only are your monitors near that halfway node, but if you check their distance from the front wall (7'8"), it's almost the same as the height dimension of the space(7'10"--- I'm no accoustics expert, but when things line up like that, you definitely add to the peaks and nulls.

Getting your rear ports a little closer to the wall won't really change much-- once they're a few inches or a foot away, that's probably where issues will develop, right?

Deadening the room completely and adding ambiance digitally or through outboard gear would be one solution, if rearrangement is truly impossible. You seem to have no bass trapping-- just some first reflection stuff. A ton of 703 in the corners and a cloud would be my first steps.

 

[Obi-Wan zenabI]

Why dont you turn around your console facing the window with the absorver above, and center it as well. Then move your keys and hammond to the to the other side of the room or off to the sides. This way youll be shooting down your soundwaves in the long direction of the room in a symetric manner. Then build some corner bass traps.

Mike

+1 what he said.

 

[Somnium7]

Why dont you turn around your console facing the window with the absorver above, and center it as well. Then move your keys and hammond to the to the other side of the room or off to the sides. This way youll be shooting down your soundwaves in the long direction of the room in a symetric manner. Then build some corner bass traps.

Mike

This still leaves the problem of blocking the main door into the room. That console is 6'3" X 2' 10". It will need at a minimum 6" between it's rear panel and the wall for cable/snake clearance. That puts it roughly 3" into the doorway unless I move it further to the left side than it is already.

New monitors and a few patch bays, and you can re-locate your desk.

I have considered this since I am already setting up two patchbays for all of my rack gear.

Deadening the room completely and adding ambiance digitally or through outboard gear would be one solution, if rearrangement is truly impossible. You seem to have no bass trapping-- just some first reflection stuff. A ton of 703 in the corners and a cloud would be my first steps.

I suppose bass trapping will probably cost about the same as patchbays and cables - several hundred at least. I guess I have to choose the lesser of two evils here.

I'm thinking the bass trapping would probably be the path of least resistance and wouldn't cause a long period of downtime.

 

[pandamonk]

I suppose bass trapping will probably cost about the same as patchbays and cables - several hundred at least. I guess I have to choose the lesser of two evils here.

I'm thinking the bass trapping would probably be the path of least resistance and wouldn't cause a long period of downtime.

I'd actually recommend both. You really want to be in the best position in the room and have bass traps.

This is what I'd do(It's roughly to scale). Just place the rest of the stuff where you want. I'd install more bass traps, including wall-ceiling corners.

 

[Somnium7]

Holy Cow! That back door in the room leads to an 8' X 5' storage/laundry room. When I open that door I notice a remarkable improvement in the bass response at my listening position. And when I stand on my chair I don't hear that bass buildup near the ceiling anymore.

Maybe I have found the simplest solution yet!

 

[NL5]

Holy Cow! That back door in the room leads to an 8' X 5' storage/laundry room. When I open that door I notice a remarkable improvement in the bass response at my listening position. And when I stand on my chair I don't hear that bass buildup near the ceiling anymore.

Maybe I have found the simplest solution yet!

There ya go! Just open the door, and stand on your chair when you mix. Problem solved!

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

This is because of an "acoustically coupling" effect. Anytime you have another space "coupled" to the space you are listening in, it affects the room response by acting as a "resonance chamber"...or something to that effect.
In essence, it acts similar to a hemholtz resonator. But I'm no expert. The problem with this though, from what I understand, it can act in reverse, when you record in the room... ie. it can add a resonance when you may not want it. It may act as a temporary solution to your existing problem, but its not a good solution over time.

I think most HR enthusiasts would agree, its better to treat the existing room so the overall room response is "balanced" as flat as possible. At least for a control room. Anytime you have another space coupled, the room RT (reverb time) wil change. (RT decay is especially noticable in small rooms in the Low frequencies...ie...boominess.)This makes the room unpredictable, and you can't trust your monitors from program to program(material. Of course, my disclaimer is in full effect here.

When an space is connected to an adjacent space which has a substantially different RT, the two rooms will form a coupled space. As long as the airflow is unrestricted between the two spaces, the decay of the most reverberant space will be noticeable within the least reverberant. This will be particularly disturbing to those closest to the interconnection.

Room resonance is similar to distortions in that it causes an undesirable tone colouration, however, room resonance results from particularly emphasised standing waves, usually within smaller rooms. This is a significant concern when designing control rooms and recording studios.

As to the "weak bass" reference...the more bass traps you add, your perception of "bass" in the room will improve, which allows you to mix with trust. When your room lies to you during recording(it colors the sound from the monitors, it lies to you again when you mix. Therefore, you never know how your mixes will "translate".


fitZ

 

[Ethan Winer]

This is because of an "acoustically coupling" effect. Anytime you have another space "coupled" to the space you are listening in, it affects the room response by acting as a "resonance chamber"...or something to that effect.

Nah, it's much simpler than that. An opening in the back wall simply breaks up the reflection by forming two different lengths to the room. You can think of this as a three-well QRD diffusor. And I just know how much Fitz loves to think about QRD diffusors!

--Ethan

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Nah, it's much simpler than that. An opening in the back wall simply breaks up the reflection by forming two different lengths to the room.

Thank god for disclaimers. Howdy Ethan.

Thanks for chiming in. Although, I did read a really good explanation by...hmmm, I think his name was Munson, or something like that, where he explained the "coupling" thing in scientific terms. I still believe the "little" room resonance has a bearing on the RT of the bigger room. I can't believe, YET, that JUST two path lengths is the complete answer. Maybe in terms of "rays" and high frequencies, but something must happen in terms of LF/resonance when spaces are coupled. My control room is a good example. When I open the door, I get a totally different bass response.
fitZ

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hey.....look at the plan. There is NO door in the back wall. Only side walls. So....how do you explain that away Ethan?

 

[pandamonk]

Hey.....look at the plan. There is NO door in the back wall. Only side walls. So....how do you explain that away Ethan?

Good point rick . Sorry Ethan, he has a point. Don't look at my recommendation, look at Somnium's original layout.

Only thing that keeps Ethan's point about QRDs, that i can think of in my limited knowledge, is that it's having an affect on SBIR(if that's the problem, which i doubt).