Portable Mastering Deck

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zoo_day

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I'm looking for a portable, 1/4", stereo, reel to reel recording deck. I would use it for mastering and location recordings at clubs. I looked at the Nagra IV S, but it's way too expensive. There are many smaller sized decks on eBay and so forth, but I'm overwhelmed. I'd prefer something with easy to source parts. Any ideas?
Thanks much.
 
Try a Tascam 22-2 on for size. It is 1/4", you can hook two microphones or lines directly into it, and uses 7" reels. It's also fairly light and not that large for a reel to reel.

-MD
 
Tascam 22-2

Thanks for the idea! I just found a broken one on craigslist for free. It's at the repair shop now. Great solution.
 
I would not use the mic inputs on a 22-2 for anything serious. Performance is likely to be poor to mediocre at best. They put them on the machine jsut to say the were included with the package. Most machines with mic pres in them are the same. The Nagras are a whole different story.
 
Depends on how you define 'poor' or 'mediocre'. The mic inputs are there for convenience and of course as a selling feature. It is my experience that they certainly are decent and will give you good performance vs dollars spent.

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cjacek said:
Depends on how you define 'poor' or 'mediocre'. The mic inputs are there for convenience and of course as a selling feature. It is my experience that they certainly are decent and will give you good performance vs dollars spent.

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Click to expand...

Noisy with no headroom and limited frequency response. Even the mic pres on Ampex studio machines sucked.
 
RRuskin said:
Noisy with no headroom and limited frequency response.
Click to expand...

First off, compared to what exactly? A high end 2K preamp? I think it's important to define 'cause to make a blunt, blanket statement like yours is being rather misleading.

OK, so you feel the 22-2 mic pres are noisy, have no headroom and a limited frequency response. That's fine, I disagree.

While not spec'd as high as some other pieces of gear, the 22-2 pres are just fine, certainly usable, decent and can yield some good recordings.

You must remember that we're not the crowd that thinks anything lower than a Trident series 80 console pre, isn't worth a look. OK, maybe this is an overstatement but it's there to make a point. This is Home Recording after all and being reasonable about offering advice is always welcome.

----
 
cjacek said:
First off, compared to what exactly? A high end 2K preamp? I think it's important to define 'cause to make a blunt, blanket statement like yours is being rather misleading.

OK, so you feel the 22-2 mic pres are noisy, have no headroom and a limited frequency response. That's fine, I disagree.

While not spec'd as high as some other pieces of gear, the 22-2 pres are just fine, certainly usable, decent and can yield some good recordings.

You must remember that we're not the crowd that thinks anything lower than a Trident series 80 console pre, isn't worth a look. OK, maybe this is an overstatement but it's there to make a point. This is Home Recording after all and being reasonable about offering advice is always welcome.

----
Click to expand...

Compared to the mic inputs on any Mackie, Behringer, Fostex or Tascam boards from the Model 3 on up. These are just some examples and they cover a lot of "bang-for the buck" territory.

The preamps built into most tape machines were not designed for anything more than the "meatball" capture of sound. The 22-2 was no different in this regard. Granted, if your intent is to point a mic or 2 towards a stage and record the results, they will certainly work and maybe not sound half bad. The results will be passable but hardly stellar. On the other hand, if you close mic a guitar and expect the preamp not to distort as soon as the player starts playing with any enthusiasm, guess again. Don't even think about a snare or kick drum. You can lower the input gain all you want but that will have no effect on the micpre because the input level control comes after that stage.

Furthermore, keep in mind that I stated that I wouldn't use the 22-2 micpre's for anything serious. Others can use anything they want. The original poster asked for advice/opinions. You gave him yours. I gave him mine. Give it a rest.
 
Dr ZEE said:
What exactly "Ampex studio machines" are you talking about. Name at least one model ... or two.

:)
Click to expand...

AG 350, AG 440 (any version), ATR 700
These are the 3 that I have 1st hand experience with. Technically speaking, the ATR 700 was a TASCAM deck made for Ampex.
 
RRuskin said:
AG 350, AG 440 (any version), ATR 700
These are the 3 that I have 1st hand experience with..
Click to expand...
uh, cool.

So, in what specific applications (or say - "serious" situations) have you tried "using" microphone preamplifiers "of" those machines and have concluded that they suck. Assuming, that your AGs were "eqipped" with mic preamps to begin with, of course :)
By "application" I mean: trying recording what and what for.
And what exactly would you (or did you) try to record on ATR-700 with mics in a "studio environment". A guitar?, a kik?, or maybe a snare?

Would be interesting to know from your experience.

/respects
 
Dr ZEE said:
uh, cool.

So, in what specific applications (or say - "serious" situations) have you tried "using" microphone preamplifiers "of" those machines and have concluded that they suck. Assuming, that your AGs were "eqipped" with mic preamps to begin with, of course :)
By "application" I mean: trying recording what and what for.
And what exactly would you (or did you) try to record on ATR-700 with mics in a "studio environment". A guitar?, a kik?, or maybe a snare?

Would be interesting to know from your experience.

/respects
Click to expand...

Environment: My studio in Pasadena which at the time was the beta test site for TASCAM.

Mics used: EV RE15, AKG 224E - neither one is particularly "hot" in the output dept.

Machines:
AG-350: recorded acoustic guitar and vocal.
Most noticeable results: Noisy with no headroom.
AG-440: recorded acoustic guitar and vocal. Noisy with no headroom.
Most noticeable results: Noisy with no headroom
ATR-700: didn't record anything on the advice of one of the designers at Tascam who told me not to bother.

Logic dictates that if an acoustic guitar, a relatively quiet instrument, distorts
an input being fed by a dynamic mic, anything louder will distort sooner/worse. Using a hotter mic won't help either.

My "by ear" findings were verified by engineers I knew and respected around LA who told me that they never used the mic inputs on any of their tape machines for anything. These guys ranged from independents to staff engineers at Capitol Records.
 
RRuskin said:
I would not use the mic inputs on a 22-2 for anything serious. Performance is likely to be poor to mediocre at best. They put them on the machine jsut to say the were included with the package. Most machines with mic pres in them are the same. The Nagras are a whole different story.
Click to expand...

For a portable solution, for the purpose he listed here, I think he'll be happy with that choice. The mic-pres are a nice feature, but if he's using this in a club, he ought to be able to get a stereo mix from the live sound board.

-MD
 
RRuskin said:
My ... findings were verified by engineers ..
..who told me that they never used the mic inputs on any of their tape machines for anything.
These guys ranged from independents to staff engineers at Capitol Records.
Click to expand...

This verifies to me that Guys at Capitol Records know their sh*t. :D

So they never used the mic inputs on any of their tape machines for anything.
Hmm. Interesting. :rolleyes:

But why one would even think of wishing to use "them" (those inputs, that is) for anything in a Capitol Records environment. ;)

A bilt-in mic preamp in a tape recorder (which , tachnically speaking, is a rather minial and a very simple "section", or say "portion", or say "circuit") is there NOT to "be a part of and impressive package", but to simply enable a user to record something on tape using a mic (and the mic only!, shall such situation arise).
It's a no-brainer that a bilt-in preamp in a tape-recorder is only capable of one and only one thing, which is: to provide interconnection between a mic and the recorder and amplify the signal from mic to the level that can be "successfully consumed" by the recorder in the process of recording.

Why would one even think about maybe expecting anything more from it or anything special or impressive from it.

Actually I know why one may think about it. But I am not going to say a thing about that.
But I'll say this: One who has never been in the Woods may suffer wonders about what may be behind the trees. When one wonders about things he/she often talks about those things, describing those things in rather bright colors.

/respects
 
Dr ZEE said:
This verifies to me that Guys at Capitol Records know their sh*t. :D

So they never used the mic inputs on any of their tape machines for anything.
Hmm. Interesting. :rolleyes:

But why one would even think of wishing to use "them" (those inputs, that is) for anything in a Capitol Records environment. ;)

A bilt-in mic preamp in a tape recorder (which , tachnically speaking, is a rather minial and a very simple "section", or say "portion", or say "circuit") is there NOT to "be a part of and impressive package", but to simply enable a user to record something on tape using a mic (and the mic only!, shall such situation arise).
It's a no-brainer that a bilt-in preamp in a tape-recorder is only capable of one and only one thing, which is: to provide interconnection between a mic and the recorder and amplify the signal from mic to the level that can be "successfully consumed" by the recorder in the process of recording.

Why would one even think about maybe expecting anything more from it or anything special or impressive from it.

Actually I know why one may think about it. But I am not going to say a thing about that.
But I'll say this: One who has never been in the Woods may suffer wonders about what may be behind the trees. When one wonders about things he/she often talks about those things, describing those things in rather bright colors.

/respects
Click to expand...

Exactly what is your point? That the engineers at Capitol in the late 60's to mid 70's didn't know their craft? That I don't know mine? I'm making this up? That you agree or disagree with my assessment that built in machine preamps, with few exceptions, aren't worth much? I'm not even certain who you are quoting. It certainly isn't me. About the only things that I can tell from your posts are that you spell about as good as the preamps in question perform and that you seem to enjoy arguing over basically nothing. As I stated earlier: opinions and advice were asked for. I posted mine. Someone else disagreed. That happens all the time. Get over it.
 
RRuskin said:
you spell about as good as the preamps in question perform ...
Click to expand...
True.

RRuskin said:
...you seem to enjoy arguing over basically nothing.
Click to expand...
Not true. I don't enjoy arguing. Nor am I arguing. I am asking questions. And it is NOT about basically nothing but it IS about basically two transistor "device" ;)
So, .....
So, - Not true.

RRuskin said:
...opinions and advice were asked for... I posted mine.
Click to expand...
Yes you did. That's why and where from I've got my questions.

I do enjoy something, though, and it is - finding roots of opinions and advice.
 
Dr ZEE said:
Yes you did. That's why and where from I've got my questions.

I do enjoy something, though, and it is - finding roots of opinions and advice.
Click to expand...

1. There wasn't one question in your previous post
2. I'm done participating in this thread.
 
RRuskin said:
1. There wasn't one question in your previous post
.
Click to expand...
Not true.
The question was: "Why would one even think about maybe expecting anything more from it or anything special or impressive from it."

*********
RRuskin said:
2. I'm done participating in this thread.
Click to expand...
Too bad. :(
Because, I've got another question, which is:
In your "by ear experiments", When you say:
RRuskin said:
Most noticeable results: Noisy with no headroom
.
Click to expand...
,
do you mean that when recording acoustic guitar and vocals with EV RE15 and/or AKG 224E "connected" to "microphone inputs" of AG-350 and/or AG-440 you've "noticed" that the distortion was starting occurring when (or say - as soon, as) the vu-meters' needles of the recorder(s) reached "0-VU" mark?
Or do you mean something else?

(btw, of course, I assume, that the recorders you were experimenting with were in fine-fine "studio condition". :) )
***************

Speaking of craftsmen "knowing their craft", be it Capitol Records' Guys or a guys with no Capitol at all, I say this: One who crafts knows what he/she does craft yet does not know what he/she does not. It's a simple circuit, you see. :D
Ask a question and you'll see who crafts what.

/respects
 
"The question was: "Why would one even think about maybe expecting anything more from it or anything special or impressive from it."

Did you bother to read my original post? You know, where I cautioned not expect much in the way of performance from built in machine mic pre's?

"do you mean that when recording acoustic guitar and vocals with EV RE15 and/or AKG 224E "connected" to "microphone inputs" of AG-350 and/or AG-440 you've "noticed" that the distortion was starting occurring when (or say - as soon, as) the vu-meters' needles of the recorder(s) reached "0-VU" mark?
Or do you mean something else?"

The preamps ran out of headroom well below "O VU" on the meters.

"(btw, of course, I assume, that the recorders you were experimenting with were in fine-fine "studio condition". )"
***************

Considering that they were calibrated either by TASCAM techs, Dick Rosmini, or John Horton and then verified again by me, I'd say yes. And before you ask - we had a full test bench on site.

"Speaking of craftsmen "knowing their craft", be it Capitol Records' Guys or a guys with no Capitol at all, I say this: One who crafts knows what he/she does craft yet does not know what he/she does not. It's a simple circuit, you see.
Ask a question and you'll see who crafts what."

You really need to see a proctologist soon. I fear you have no hemorrhoids, making you a perfect asshole.

/respects
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Last edited:
RRuskin said:
The preamps ran out of headroom well below "O VU" on the meters.
Click to expand...
How "well"?
-3?
-5?
or "weller" :) ?

/respects
***********

p.s.
Just let them (them - heads, that require more room than any room can provide) speak, and sit back ....
;)
 
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