4 track cassette only good for demos, while real records are made on 2" Studer?

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Why would a skilled producer or engineer use a portastudio if he had the choice? For the challenge? These machines were designed with the unskilled home user in mind, not for professional use. Yes, they have been pushed into service to record albums before, but more for reasons of budget than on technical merit. I can't think of any reason for a professional to use one of these machines except as a musical scratchpad. Would you pay a professional upwards of $40 an hour plus expenses to record you on a Tascam portastudio? I sure as hell wouldn't!

In answer to this and a few other posts I'll say the following:

Lets reintroduce the original premise, which I think we might split into two questions or more.

1. Can one achieve professional results using cassette multi-track?

ANSWER: Yes, because it has been done. It's not a hypothetical unless the reader is very young or maybe older but missed the golden era when we pushed narrow track technology, including cassette, with extraordinary results in the 1980’s. But keep in mind all cassette multi-tracks are not created equal.

To be fair there was a certain breed that used the portastudios to great effect -- the engineer/composer/musician types like me. I had friends that worked in commercial studios that never explored the home studio concept at all because they weren't musicians.

I started recording professionally in the late 70’s in A/V in a TV studio, but my first home studio was built around the TEAC 144 about a year or so after it was introduced. It was awesome, but the Tascam 244 and 246 to follow were even more awesome.

Back then portas were used for many things… experimenting, demos, TV/radio spots, and commercially released songs/albums. And yes people did pay professionals to record them on portastudios (They paid me). But I was paid, not for what I had or didn’t have, but because of what I could accomplish with it.

The key word here is ‘Professional’, which I think we can agree in this context would be someone that knows what the hell they’re doing with what they have. I knew plenty of people with portastudios that couldn’t get anything out of them because they hadn’t mastered the fundamentals of recording, or just weren’t cut out for it. They wouldn’t have gotten anything out of a 24-track Studer 827 either.

People create the magic with the machine. The machine is not magic. Just hand one of Eddie’s guitars to the 83-year-old church organist at first Lutheran in Kalamazoo and ask her to play ‘Eruption.' It's Eddie's guitar, but it ain't Eddie (might look like Eddie though) :eek:

Back in the day there might be a handful of people in a given area that owned cassette multi-tracks that could actually use them effectively. In the 80’s I lived in a metro area with about 200,000 people. There were portastudios from Tascam, Fostex, Yamaha, etc, flying off the shelves of several local music stores. However, there were only a handful of us that people sought out for serious recording projects. I did some of my best work with a Tascam 246.

That brings me to the other part of the question…

2. Can the reader use a cassette multi-track with professional results?

Depends on the reader… What do you know about recording? Can you achieve professional results with capable equipment that rises to the level expected in your particular genre of music?

Another reason I and others like me that had access to pro equipment liked the early portas is because we were artists ourselves. Inspiration strikes at about 2:00 AM for a lot of us. It may not last the time it takes to get dressed and drive across town (the next town in my case). In fact the home environment was less stressful to me as an artist and to clients who liked the casual atmosphere… plus my little sister who liked to hang around was HOT, if I do say so myself… and that didn’t hurt business either.

In summary all you need are:

- Natural ability
- A grasp of the fundamentals of recording (Spend more time reading and less time on web forums)
- Using that knowledge and good judgment to select the better of the cassette species for your purposes. (Hint… they don’t make them anymore)
- Tape selection (one of the most important, but overlooked)
- Good maintenance practices (I cleaned heads, tape path, etc: degaussed; used a mini-vac and compressed air on my 246 before each session).
- A hot sister

:)
 
1. Can one achieve professional results using cassette multi-track?

ANSWER: Yes, because it has been done. It's not a hypothetical unless the reader is very young or maybe older but missed the golden era when we pushed narrow track technology, including cassette, with extraordinary results in the 1980’s. But keep in mind all cassette multi-tracks are not created equal.



YES!!

In summary all you need are:

- Natural ability
- A grasp of the fundamentals of recording (Spend more time reading and less time on web forums)
- Using that knowledge and good judgment to select the better of the cassette species for your purposes. (Hint… they don’t make them anymore)
- Tape selection (one of the most important, but overlooked)
- Good maintenance practices (I cleaned heads, tape path, etc: degaussed; used a mini-vac and compressed air on my 246 before each session).
- A hot sister



Also very true! (although I'm still not sure about demagging cassette heads)
 
oops, how does one use that quote function, i am such a fool...those were of course Beck's quotes...
 
.......................................... i give up!

I mean,

first off there is nothing "professional" about studios in the first place. Its not like you're a doctor, or a lawyer...a studio can't be "professional" or not. An engineer or a producer might consider themselves to be a "professional" but this is akin to a drug dealer or a waiter calling themselves a "professional".....they might be making their living at it but they're really not professionals. There is no such thing as a "pro" studio or a "pro" producer. That being said there are people who make their living doing it. Beck at home with his hot sister doesn't count...that's a home studio situation. I would like to think Bobby darko counts but I am guessing it doesn't pay his bills either. try to run a "pro" studio on one of those things...customer gets a dropout they'll be to the next studio. do you really think the next number 1 hit artist is going to accept a dropout? come on. this is ridiculous. maybe some punk bands will go for it...which is why I am down with it...I just wouldn't be opening up a studio for hire with one. even if I had incredible skills. sure some albums may have been released recorded on a porta. I might even do it on my next album. but that's not the same thing as running a studio day in and day out built around one.
 
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Ageed.
Also, There's nothing wrong with driving a Ferrari as long as you don't go around claiming that Pinto can't drive you from point "A" to point "B".

Perhaps the car analogy wasn't a good one, because the Ampexes, Studers, and Nagras can without any doubt get a person from point A to point B. Indeed, that's all that they were made to do. There is not a single feature on them that is superfluous glitz or glam. What's more, compared to their less expensive counterparts, they drive more safely, they're less likely to end up by the side of the road, and they're easier to fix when they do. There is a reason these machines were employed by professionals (i.e., people who made their living recording and could potentially have the machines running 15 hours a day, 7 days a week) and that they cost as much as they did.

Believe me, I'm no snob, but I do know the difference between Burger King and filet mignon, and I'm not going to trick myself into believing that Burger King is better or "just as good" simply because it's easier on my pocketbook!
 
ANSWER: Yes, because it has been done. It's not a hypothetical unless the reader is very young or maybe older but missed the golden era when we pushed narrow track technology, including cassette, with extraordinary results in the 1980’s.

Extraordinary results? That's debatable. I, personally, am not a big fan of a lot of the recordings that were produced in the 80's. Rather than "extraordinary," I would say that narrow track technology was used to make recordings that were adequate.

The key word here is ‘Professional’, which I think we can agree in this context would be someone that knows what the hell they’re doing with what they have.

I'm using the term to describe someone who does recording for a living.

People create the magic with the machine. The machine is not magic. Just hand one of Eddie’s guitars to the 83-year-old church organist at first Lutheran in Kalamazoo and ask her to play ‘Eruption.' It's Eddie's guitar, but it ain't Eddie (might look like Eddie though)

So we should never judge gear? There can't be any objective criteria for evaluating the quality of equipment? Perhaps we should go around recording album projects on microcassette recorders, since size doesn't matter, and "the machine is not magic"? Or would that be going too far? If you can say that a cassette 4-track can produce better recordings than a microcassette recorder, then why can't I say that, all other factors being the same, an Ampex 1/2" 4-track produces better recordings than the cassette machine?

I don't see how such a statement could be considered controversial, but in this thread, apparently it is. I mean, jeez, those imbeciles with the Studers and Otaris and Ampexes, they should just take that old garbage to the junkyard and sell it for scrap, and use the proceeds to buy a narrow-format machine, right?

It still seems to me like some people in this thread have an inferiority complex in regards to the equipment they're using, and that they're panning higher-end gear to make themselves feel better.

There were portastudios from Tascam, Fostex, Yamaha, etc, flying off the shelves of several local music stores. However, there were only a handful of us that people sought out for serious recording projects. I did some of my best work with a Tascam 246.

That's because the people buying these machines weren't buying them with the intention of recording other people for money! So you saw an opportunity to make money selling your services, you took the initiative, and it worked out for you. People came to you with projects, and no doubt part of the incentive for them is that you were selling your services cheaper than the pro studios, right? Or maybe that you could bring your portastudio over to them so they didn't have to bother displacing themselves and their gear to go to a studio. Or hell, maybe they just liked you. That makes you a good businessman, but it hardly proves your point that a portastudio or semi-pro gear is technically superior to or "as good as" pro gear, if that is indeed what you are trying to argue. All other factors being the same, you would have produced better quality recordings with higher-end gear, and probably with a lot less effort.

That brings me to the other part of the question…

2. Can the reader use a cassette multi-track with professional results?

Depends on the reader… What do you know about recording? Can you achieve professional results with capable equipment that rises to the level expected in your particular genre of music?

We need to define the word "professional" in this context. What makes a recording "professional"? Radio airplay? Major label distribution? Sales? Consensus? I've heard an awful lot of mediocre recordings that could meet all of those criteria.

At any rate, I think I'll excuse myself from the thread at this point. I've said what I had to say, and I have a feeling I'm just going to keep repeating the same things over and over. Have a Merry Christmas, y'all.
 
.......................................... i give up!

I mean,

first off there is nothing "professional" about studios in the first place. Its not like you're a doctor, or a lawyer...a studio can't be "professional" or not. An engineer or a producer might consider themselves to be a "professional" but this is akin to a drug dealer or a waiter calling themselves a "professional".....they might be making their living at it but they're really not professionals.

There used to be a time when you were expected to have an engineering degree as a bare minimum in order to work in a studio. Those people really were professionals, in the same sense as a doctor or lawyer. In today's world, I just use the term to describe someone who makes a living at it.

There is no such thing as a "pro" studio or a "pro" producer. That being said there are people who make their living doing it. Beck at home with his hot sister doesn't count...that's a home studio situation. I would like to think Bobby darko counts but I am guessing it doesn't pay his bills either. try to run a "pro" studio on one of those things...customer gets a dropout they'll be to the next studio. do you really think the next number 1 hit artist is going to accept a dropout? come on. this is ridiculous. maybe some punk bands will go for it...which is why I am down with it...I just wouldn't be opening up a studio for hire with one. even if I had incredible skills. sure some albums may have been released recorded on a porta. I might even do it on my next album. but that's not the same thing as running a studio day in and day out built around one.

I couldn't agree with you more! The exceptions don't disprove the rule.
 
at falken:

hell no, I can't make a living with my portastudio....but I actually did build a studio around it (the plan was to use a tascam 388, but since they can't be found in my area....grrr). Call me crazy, but on the other hand: I do have enough clients since I opened this summer to pay for the rent (of the studio) and buy a nice mic every now and then. And yes, I'm saving up for a better recorder as well.

I guess it has to do with some luck though. There are many folk, blues, country (old style/not nashville pop), garage, lo fi and experimental musicians in my area (Holland). They really like the sound of my cassettes apparently. And no, I couldn't do a metal album, but I really don't care..So it's not only the gear, but also the clientele.

Also it's the no hassle process of recording you get with (cassette)tape. I don't have 5609 different plugins to choose from, so I save time with that..many musiscians like it that way too...especially the good ones.:D

btw. I had maybe two tapes that dropped out on me. In 4 years of using cassettes. I just told the guys to play it again on a fresh tape, no worries...
 
And I keep having to remind myself... no more of this type of discussion with "new" members that are often just reinvented old members because they're spouting the same urban legends, often verbatim. I think I'll make it my New Years resolution so I don’t forget. It could be that these misconceptions are so engrained on the web that they keep coming back up... I dunno.

Sorry new authentic members, but we've been doing this for years now and have corrected the misconceptions many times. Use the search feature.

And remember my most important advice ever... "Spend more time reading (standard recording texts or just older recording books from people like Anderton, Woram and Bartlett) and less time on web forums."

Not much one can do about the revisionist music history floating around the web. Some of us were there and some weren’t. It’s obvious to those of us that were there and have been recording most of our lives which one’s weren’t there. For the rest, I’ve said it before… I would really hate to be trying to learn recording in this day in age. May God have mercy on your soul… and Merry Christmas! :D
 
Igor Alexander said:
Ampexes, Studers, and Nagras can without any doubt get a person from point A to point B.
Yes, Assuming! that there is no doubt about what exactly point "A" and point "B" are.
*********
Igor Alexander said:
There is not a single feature on them that is superfluous glitz or glam.
Not true.
Igor Alexander said:
What's more, compared to their less expensive counterparts, they drive more safely
Not true.
Igor Alexander said:
What's more, compared to their less expensive counterparts, ... they're less likely to end up by the side of the road
Arguably, but Not true.
Igor Alexander said:
...and they're easier to fix when they do.
Absolutely NOT true.
Igor Alexander said:
There is a reason these machines were employed by professionals ...
No doupt.
Igor Alexander said:
There is a reason these machines ... cost as much as they did.
No doupt.
Igor Alexander said:
Believe me, I'm no snob
I take your word on it. Also whether you are or aren't makes no difference in respect to the subject of the discussion. So? :confused:
Igor Alexander said:
I do know the difference between Burger King and filet mignon...
At this point I'll take your word on that.

Igor Alexander said:
...and I'm not going to trick myself into believing that Burger King is better or "just as good" simply because it's easier on my pocketbook!
Nop. You don't know the difference between Burger King and filet mignon.
Try this. Compare beef with beef . Then compare what happens after you swallow beef and the result with what happens after you swallow beef and the result. Don't feel! Avoid comparing feelings you get. Think anatomy, physiology, biochemistry - things like that :D
*********
btw, the "car" analogy was just fine, better than "beef" one ;)

/later
 
TIM!
When I type things, I don't care about members. ;)
Just do it for a reader. So it's a duty (of sort) - to type things, while you can and/or when ever you get into the mood for it. So, ... hmmmmmmmmm
well, you get my point.
:D

/later
 

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The key word here is ‘Professional’, which I think we can agree in this context would be someone that knows what the hell they’re doing with what they have.
I'm using the term to describe someone who does recording for a living.
I will have to disagree with your definition of professional. You said in this context you are using it to describe "someone who does recording for a living."

According to your statement, I was a professional for the two years I was making a living recording people in my home studio with this
TASCAM.jpg

and that would have also made Beck a professional when people were paying him for recordings made off of this
image04.jpg


I will have to agree with Beck on this one. A professional is somebody who knows what the hell they are doing. Whether they make a living at it or not has zero relevance with me.


.
 
Fillet Mignon is a perfectly fine attempt at an analogy because...
many people are vegetarians and wouldn't go near it...
many folk have bad or few teeth and need the predigested burger...
many folk view fillet mignon as just some beef, bacon & bread (a bit like a burger)...
many people aren't all that aware when they are comsuming equineprotein...
many people believe haute cuisine to be haute because of their inate haughtiness...
many people work, and achieve excellent results with, the cut of meat they have - tenderizing with a mallet, slow cooking, flash frying, marinating and so forth - how else would offal make it onto the menu and subsistance farmers/hunters/gatherers manage to survive.
In other words whilst meat is murder so too is spectrograph in the hands of a TV producer.
 
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I'm not sure I get this discussion. I get the feeling it's going back to the digi - pro / amateur analog discussion, while the question was: can you make a record on cassette. The answer off course is: Yes

The second question is: can you make a commercial record on cassette: the answer again is yes, as I discovered myself (ok, it was a suprise for me too).

The final question, could you make a commercial record that would sell millions of copies (like for instance Nebraska did)? THe answer is no I'm afraid. NOt only because the majority of the people want bubblegum music that is compressed and auto tuned to shit, but also because records just don't sell anymore...

OK, back to my studio, have to erase some CASSETTES for the next client...

Please continue this thread!!

www.myspace.com/casacassette

Hey Bobby, that's some really cool stuff you have on your site there. Great work. :)
 
thanks beagle, i'm doing the best i can with the gear at hand. Must refresh some songs on the myspace page btw, that's old stuff. I'm doing a record with some guys now that just sounds unbelievable, especially when you know it's all done on cassette.

btw. i'm not dissing 2" tape or even digital recorders, but I do agree with some guys here that cassette has a bad rep. If you have a little (or a lot) knowledge about recording, some decent mics and good musiscians you can do a lot on the right machine. It will never have the fidelity of thicker/wider tape, but the technology of some portastudio's was really really pushing some limits at the time they appeared. And they're dirt cheap no, so why don't take advantage when you're broke like me..;)

NOnetheless I'm upgrading to a 388 this week!! You may congratulate me...:cool::D:cool:
 
thanks beagle, i'm doing the best i can with the gear at hand. Must refresh some songs on the myspace page btw, that's old stuff. I'm doing a record with some guys now that just sounds unbelievable, especially when you know it's all done on cassette.

btw. i'm not dissing 2" tape or even digital recorders, but I do agree with some guys here that cassette has a bad rep. If you have a little (or a lot) knowledge about recording, some decent mics and good musiscians you can do a lot on the right machine. It will never have the fidelity of thicker/wider tape, but the technology of some portastudio's was really really pushing some limits at the time they appeared. And they're dirt cheap no, so why don't take advantage when you're broke like me..;)

NOnetheless I'm upgrading to a 388 this week!! You may congratulate me...:cool::D:cool:

Congratulations, although does this mean you have to rename your studio? :)

I'd like to hear the new stuff. Let me know when they're up there!

If you'd like, you can check out some of my tunes here:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=328768

There's all kinds of stuff on there (including two Christmas tunes I added for the season), but the ones I'm most proud of (song-wise atleast .. not necessarily recording-wise) are "Nobody Showers," "Not That Bad," "Feeling Tired," and "That's What I'd Say."
 
Quarterinch Headquarters!!!

...................:eek:;)
 

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I just love picture time Reel :)
 

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I just love picture time Reel :)

Is this your studio Gary? That is really nice! WOW!!:):)

Isn't it strange but I have that very same utility / folding table!:eek:

I am, however, a bit nervous about the location of that 38.. Any Earthquakes where you are?:eek::D;)
 
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