TerraMortim
New member
absolutely the case with teachers lol... they're the same people coming on forums and putting up wrong information.
absolutely the case with teachers lol... they're the same people coming on forums and putting up wrong information.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
One important difference; there are no prerequesites required for any mook with a modem and keyboard to get on the internet and start spewing...and they usually do
. At least teachers involved in a trade or technical curriculum have to pass at least some level of prerequisite or vetting before they can start. Even more important, one can vette the school's curriculum first.
G.
I
Ironklad Audio
New member
yea, the one big gripe with the program i've taken is that the guy in charge of the whole deal is your typical hardcore formally-trained jazz/classical type, and thus almost all of the tracking and mixing techniques he passes on to his students are from that perspective.
bennychico11
...
One important difference; there are no prerequesites required for any mook with a modem and keyboard to get on the internet and start spewing...and they usually do
At least teachers involved in a trade or technical curriculum have to pass at least some level of prerequisite or vetting before they can start. Even more important, one can vette the school's curriculum first.
G.
agree 100%
bennychico11
...
and me coming from that background...I agree
It still confuses the hell out of me how people are running studios, recording music and can't even read a chart. I'm not talking about an engineer who plays guitar and can read tabs. Or a "producah" who can run a turntable.....how does an engineer run a session and not know basic music theory?
I will bet you a classical/jazz guy will also stress more of the art of it all....especially when it comes to dynamics, chordal structure, directing a band, etc. Most classical/jazz guys have an ear for stuff some of us only dream of having.
S
shockingcandy
Leads for all occasions
I had keyboard lessons for 4 years before teaching myself guitar and I studied Electronic Engineering at Uni. I have a friend who took a course at the School Of Sound Recording (Manchester) and another who has a degree in Technical Theatre Arts (or something like that). I would consider both of them to know much more about recording techniques than I do! But I have fun re-inventing the wheel and finding new ways to to terrorise the listening public 
I
Ironklad Audio
New member
he definitely stresses the details - which forces everyone in his class to be on top of thier game. and you're right...he has a great ear, and obsesses over what the band is doing. not only did be build the recording arts program from the ground-up, he also conducts, teaches music theory and is the director of the entire performing arts division.
aside from physically being able to use tons of truly pro equipment, it's been great going to school just to see someone like himself work, provide helpful hints/tips, teach studio etiquette, etc. etc.
C
cusebassman
Freakin' sweet
Is it a recording engineer's job to tell / suggest to the musicians what they should be playing? I'm all for people being generally well-educated in music performance and composition, but it would seem to me when going into a professional studio that I'd rather the engineer worry about the sound I am creating, and if anything, maybe have a producer deal with the music itself.
bennychico11
...
the thing is a lot of times the engineer has to play the producer's role as well. True, in a perfect world the band would know the songs before they came into the studio...wouldn't need to do any composing/arranging/practicing while in there, or would at the very least have a producer with them to run the show. But how many engineers here who run a small/mid size studio have clients who actually can afford a producer? Or have such amazing musicians that come in and nail out the entire CD on the first take...without ever asking the engineer "what do you think of that?"
In the commercial world, labels will give you a producer. In small town Ohio where there might be only two recording studios in the entire city...the bands wanting to record probably don't have the connections for that. So it's good to have that extra knowledge to help guide a young/inexperienced band.
At the same time, even IN the commercial world there are a lot of times an engineer is expected to know a least a little music theory. Several studios I looked at applying for asked "can you read a score?" Even if your typical local rock band doesn't use charts, anyone who has a session with classical or jazz musicians will find themselves in trouble if they can't follow along. Sure the engineer might not find it his job to tell the musicians what they should be doing, but if the conductor, producer, etc. tells the engineer about a certain part in the music and he doesn't understand what the hell he's being asked....you'd probably be regretting ever learning basic theory.
Dr.Bootleg
New member
I'm self-taught all the way. I've been recording on and off for about ten years now but I never really had a clue what I was doing until I started coming to this board and this site and learning so many of the basics I had no idea about. My stuff is getting better all the time and I'm putting more effort into learning how to do it. I would love to go to a nice school like SAE (there's one not far from here), and I looked into it but it's WAY too expensive. I just couldn't cut it. And like some of you guys said, just because you went to a good school and have a good degree is no guarantee you'll get a job in that field.
It's funny because I have a friend who is really into music and recording. He went to some short recording school years back, has recorded several albums in actual studios but still doesn't have a clue about anything. I was talking to him about simple things like XLR inputs and panning tracks during mixing and he looked at me like I was from friggin' Mars. Unreal.
I know I would learn a lot faster by going to school or getting training of some kind but there's also a great satisfaction in teaching yourself.
It's funny because I have a friend who is really into music and recording. He went to some short recording school years back, has recorded several albums in actual studios but still doesn't have a clue about anything. I was talking to him about simple things like XLR inputs and panning tracks during mixing and he looked at me like I was from friggin' Mars. Unreal.
I know I would learn a lot faster by going to school or getting training of some kind but there's also a great satisfaction in teaching yourself.
C
cusebassman
Freakin' sweet
I suppose I was looking at it from a perfect-world scenario. Definitely convinced me that it is a nice thing to have when you are working as an engineer.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
I agree with Benny, but even something a bit more basic than even what he is discussing is quite helpful. Just to be able to tell the guitarist that his G is a few cents flat, or to be able to know to tell the band to pick up the next take or dub halfway through the 3rd bar, etc. can streamline the recording process greatly.
G.
bennychico11
...
or to tell a vocalist she needs to sing a fourth up on that harmony
(for the strangest reason singers can't read music...but they know their intervals
)
TerraMortim
New member
One important difference; there are no prerequesites required for any mook with a modem and keyboard to get on the internet and start spewing...and they usually do
At least teachers involved in a trade or technical curriculum have to pass at least some level of prerequisite or vetting before they can start. Even more important, one can vette the school's curriculum first.
G.
that was kind of what I was getting at with school curriculum lol..
jeffmaher
New member
I went to college.... for music...and studied privately. The private instruction was always more bang for the buck. Way more.
That in mind...and now wanting to learn to record...I kept my ears open and talked to people. Bingo: there's a guy who lives in my town who's a pro...has had stuff he has produced, recorded, and written for some name artists, in the Billboard charts. Has a personal studio in his basement. 20 years in the biz. Right next door.
I called him, and I start 'lessons' next month...$50/hr. Exactly what I was paying for private music instruction.
First day is me bringing raw stereo mixdowns of some of my stuff. He's gonna run me through some mastering routines and thought processes...learn me what to listen for., and attempt to teach me to make goodness outta my dreck using the tools I have...but have no clue how to apply. I'll prolly learn more in an hour with this guy than I did in the 9 months of teaching myself through trial and error...and reading the forum.
Screw college.
That in mind...and now wanting to learn to record...I kept my ears open and talked to people. Bingo: there's a guy who lives in my town who's a pro...has had stuff he has produced, recorded, and written for some name artists, in the Billboard charts. Has a personal studio in his basement. 20 years in the biz. Right next door.
I called him, and I start 'lessons' next month...$50/hr. Exactly what I was paying for private music instruction.
First day is me bringing raw stereo mixdowns of some of my stuff. He's gonna run me through some mastering routines and thought processes...learn me what to listen for., and attempt to teach me to make goodness outta my dreck using the tools I have...but have no clue how to apply. I'll prolly learn more in an hour with this guy than I did in the 9 months of teaching myself through trial and error...and reading the forum.
Screw college.
C
cusebassman
Freakin' sweet
Although, I suppose working with him one-on-one is worth that amount of money. I would feel somehow ripped off though, if I had to pay $50 / hour just to watch him work with groups. Still wouldn't mind paying to sit in, but certainly not that much, as long as I'm not getting in the way too much
I agree that college for recording is a big risk considering how little return you most likely often get from it, but for many other, more traditional disciplines, I don't agree with this at all. I know that's not the scope of the thread, just pointing it out
bennychico11
...
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jeffmaher
New member
Your reading something into the massage that ain't there.
The forum is a great resource. But its utility is limited.
Like a newb asked on another thread how to separate a stereo track.....he admits cluelessness. He gets a response that is correct, but probably too brief and not descriptive enough...using tech-talk....for understanding. And then there's the cliquish snittery among the "knows" aimed at the "know-nots". I can put up with the white noise; but it's kinda off-putting. Still, I learn a lot here.
A buddy's kid graduated top of his class from Berklee...vocal and audio engineering. The kid had lots of great shots of him and P. Ditty and other assorted stars of pop music.....he was working in LA. He was on salary. Not great money. He was working 18 hours a day. He had to share an apartment with a bunch of other guys. He's in NY now doing the same thing. His dad is paying off his $150,000 in student loans. There's an imbalance of investment and opportunity. He did get invited to fab Hollywood parties, though.
OTOH, my kid graduated from a maritime college. She's a Merchant officer. She paid off her student loans in about a year... herself. She makes more money in a few months than I ever made in an entire year. There's yer bang for the buck in college. Y' gotta be selective.
I'm not saying screw college, universally; but I am saying that a recording arts degree is not a great investment. As with playing music, they don't wanna see your degree: you can play...or not. You are creative, reliable knowledgable, and can operate a session, mix, and master work...or not. I can be available for exploitation as well as a guy with a degree....if I wanted to work in the industry. Just like music.
I went to Berklee for music in '79. At the same time, I was working with three grads. They told me not to waste my money. They were right. They near insisted that I study privately. I shoulda listened...immediately.
Anyway, I think in the case of recording, private instruction is also a really good way to go. $50/hr is a reasonable investment. Plumbers will cost you $80/hr or more. It's an apprenticeship model which works well for musicians. Not much of that going on in recording arts, as far as I can tell. I made my own reality. I'm doing this to learn how to make product for the commercial market....making the 90% of music that people hear everyday..and don't listen too. The stuff of hotel lobbies and elevators and dentists' offices. TV shows, news bumpers...Viagra ads. There's a good living in it. No touring. No performances. I can sit at home, making nice recordings, mailing them out, letting publishers license them...and collect air-play royalties. I'm giving myself 10 years to get there. I know guys who do it. I can do it. But I gotta learn to make decent product. 100 hours of instruction will cost me $5,000. I get to work on fab gear. And judging from previous experience, that 100 hours would cost a lot less, and be three times as productive, as going to school for it.
sincerely, and respectfully,
the abused newb.
The forum is a great resource. But its utility is limited.
Like a newb asked on another thread how to separate a stereo track.....he admits cluelessness. He gets a response that is correct, but probably too brief and not descriptive enough...using tech-talk....for understanding. And then there's the cliquish snittery among the "knows" aimed at the "know-nots". I can put up with the white noise; but it's kinda off-putting. Still, I learn a lot here.
A buddy's kid graduated top of his class from Berklee...vocal and audio engineering. The kid had lots of great shots of him and P. Ditty and other assorted stars of pop music.....he was working in LA. He was on salary. Not great money. He was working 18 hours a day. He had to share an apartment with a bunch of other guys. He's in NY now doing the same thing. His dad is paying off his $150,000 in student loans. There's an imbalance of investment and opportunity. He did get invited to fab Hollywood parties, though.
OTOH, my kid graduated from a maritime college. She's a Merchant officer. She paid off her student loans in about a year... herself. She makes more money in a few months than I ever made in an entire year. There's yer bang for the buck in college. Y' gotta be selective.
I'm not saying screw college, universally; but I am saying that a recording arts degree is not a great investment. As with playing music, they don't wanna see your degree: you can play...or not. You are creative, reliable knowledgable, and can operate a session, mix, and master work...or not. I can be available for exploitation as well as a guy with a degree....if I wanted to work in the industry. Just like music.
I went to Berklee for music in '79. At the same time, I was working with three grads. They told me not to waste my money. They were right. They near insisted that I study privately. I shoulda listened...immediately.
Anyway, I think in the case of recording, private instruction is also a really good way to go. $50/hr is a reasonable investment. Plumbers will cost you $80/hr or more. It's an apprenticeship model which works well for musicians. Not much of that going on in recording arts, as far as I can tell. I made my own reality. I'm doing this to learn how to make product for the commercial market....making the 90% of music that people hear everyday..and don't listen too. The stuff of hotel lobbies and elevators and dentists' offices. TV shows, news bumpers...Viagra ads. There's a good living in it. No touring. No performances. I can sit at home, making nice recordings, mailing them out, letting publishers license them...and collect air-play royalties. I'm giving myself 10 years to get there. I know guys who do it. I can do it. But I gotta learn to make decent product. 100 hours of instruction will cost me $5,000. I get to work on fab gear. And judging from previous experience, that 100 hours would cost a lot less, and be three times as productive, as going to school for it.
sincerely, and respectfully,
the abused newb.
P
pezking
New member
jeff I think what you're doing may well suit you, as your effectively going to be self employed, but if I were an employer I'd still look for someone with a degree from a reputable course.
It's funny, despite the cost of living being so much higher in the UK compared to the states, it's probably cheaper to go to university here!
Like I've said before, university/college isn't just about learning a trade or subject...
It's funny, despite the cost of living being so much higher in the UK compared to the states, it's probably cheaper to go to university here!
Like I've said before, university/college isn't just about learning a trade or subject...
M
Mindset
Well-known member
I agree that college for recording is a big risk considering how little return you most likely often get from it, but for many other, more traditional disciplines, I don't agree with this at all. I know that's not the scope of the thread, just pointing it out
I believe that you get as much as you put in.