mastering for vinyl

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Hi_Flyer

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OK, I searched a bit and there are threads on this topic but nothing really specifically addresses this question...

anyway, my band got a record coming out and I recorded/mixed it. we have been talking about sending it to this local dude to "master" it but he works ITB and all he's gonna do is basically apply some EQ and check phase coherency, he is not cutting the lacquer or anything.

My question is this: is this an unnecessary step in the process? do we need to pay this dude for this? won't the plant master the vinyl?

Its gonna be pressed by Pirate's Press
http://www.piratespress.com/vinyl.html

My opinion is that if we are gonna PAY somebody to do it, it should be somebody GOOD, like Prairie Cat, and that dude actually cuts the lacquers...

While mixing, I have tried to be fairly conscious of the fact that this is gonna be on vinyl, so I don't have anything hard panned, and I didn't compress/limit the crap out of the overall mix. But, I am a little bit concerned that it may not "translate" well to vinyl as I am not very experienced. I dunno exactly how to check for phase problems, although there shouldn't really be any, only a possibility with the drum overs really...

any thoughts from the mastering gurus?
 
You will want someone who knows what they are doing to master the track for the master plate. The physics of a cutting needle are pretty specific as far as frequencies and their respective levels, i have heard stories of needles cutting all the way through a master plate because of the track being mastered incorrectly
 
yeah, but won't the pressing plant have somebody do that anyway? I mean they have to make sure that it can be physically cut, right? I'm gonna call Pirate's Press to see whether "mastering" is part of the cost of pressing, or whether its a seperate charge or what.
 
Hi_Flyer said:
we have been talking about sending it to this local dude to "master" it but he works ITB and all he's gonna do is basically apply some EQ and check phase coherency, he is not cutting the lacquer or anything.

My question is this: is this an unnecessary step in the process? do we need to pay this dude for this? won't the plant master the vinyl?
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Vinyl is frequently mastered "on the fly". It is hard to tell if it could be an advantage when someone does it before it is going to be cut, since I don't have any comparisons between those approaches, which are both very comon.
I dunno exactly how to check for phase problems, although there shouldn't really be any, only a possibility with the drum overs really...
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Eventhough, I don't master for vinyl, there are some basic rules, you can be pretty certain about:
- There my no frequencies present lower than 40 Hz since that range is reserved for the tone arm resonance.
- Avoid stereo mics, as they catch up pretty chaotic phase behavior.
- Put low intense instruments like bass guitar and kick drum at the centre.
- Don't use surround effects, channel independent phase filters and stereo enhancers. While those effects are possible on vinyl, they will significantly reduce the playing time and may require a thicker vinyl plate for a deeper groove. The actual limits depend much on the plant.
- If you plan to use a limiter in order to increase the playing time, it must be aware of the RIAA equalization. Limiters for CD mastering won't give you any advantage, but just decrease the impact.
- Avoid too many high frequencies. This one can vary very much, depending on the technic used to cut the master plate.
- If necessary, put a high pass filter on the side channel.
 
Hi_Flyer said:
yeah, but won't the pressing plant have somebody do that anyway? I mean they have to make sure that it can be physically cut, right? I'm gonna call Pirate's Press to see whether "mastering" is part of the cost of pressing, or whether its a seperate charge or what.
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If they actually make the master plates there then yes they should. Around here, people have the plates made up by a specialty house and then it gets sent to the pressing plant
 
yeah I'm guessing they make the plates, their website says:

"MASTERING - In addition to producing the thickest and best dressed records in the industry, our records have a distinct advantage aurally as well. We work with one of the exclusive few plants in the worked that invested in DMM Processing technology, a revolutionary new technology that allows vinyl records to yield a larger overall sound range with far less ambient noise (cracks & hisses).

What the process does, essentially, is removes a step in the process of pressing a record. Ordinarily, when you have a lacquer cut, you have to then metalicize that lacquer to mould the stamping plates from it. A DMM Processor allows you to simply carve that metallic (copper) plate directly using a diamond bit. Having one fewer transfer, it yields a far cleaner and more powerful sound."

GZ Digital Media in the Czech Republic actually presses the records I think...
 
IMHO, you really need to talk to Pirate's Press about what they need from you in order to be able to deliver their best product. No one will be able to give you a better answer than they will. I'm suprised they don't have an FAQ somewhere that covers this topic.

I suspect their answer will be something along the lines of, "just make your best sounding mix and send it along with some notes as far as what you'd like to hear in the final, and leave the rest to us." But there's only one way to know the right answer for sure, and that's to get off the internet and get on the phone :).

G.
 
Historically, cutting the master plate was mastering. This thing we do now (slamming mixes into limiters and MBC's) is kind of the bastard stepchild of mastering.

The guy cutting the disc is the only one qualified to mess with your mixes and get them to sit will on vinyl. Anyone who is willing to 'master' your album digitally before sending it to get cut doesn't know what they are doing and will probably screw it up.
 
Farview said:
Anyone who is willing to 'master' your album digitally before sending it to get cut doesn't know what they are doing and will probably screw it up.
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see this is kinda what I was thinking too. plus he will want $$ and we don't have any... I know that Prairie Cat knows what the hell he is doing, and he cuts the plates, so if we are gonna PAY for it, I wanna send it to him.

I will definitely call Pirates Press and talk to them too. can't do it right now cuz i'm at work, but I'll call later 2day...
 
Some general tips:

http://www.urpressing.com/tips.html

You may also want to contact Paul Gold in NY for more info:
http://www.vinylmastering.net/

Personally I see no problem with digital or analog mastering before cutting as long as it's done conservatively and with forethought. I've done this for some of my Punk and Dance clients. It might be a good idea for your ME to send a few samples to Prairie Cat for feedback on any potential issues if he hasn't done this before.
 
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Let's be clear: The guy running the lathe is the guy that is mastering the album. If you want to send it to someone to clean some things up, he needs to know where the boundaries are. Otherwise the guy cutting the disc will have to undo your premastering. If he cant undo it, he won't be able to cut the disc.
 
Farview said:
Let's be clear: The guy running the lathe is the guy that is mastering the album. If you want to send it to someone to clean some things up, he needs to know where the boundaries are. Otherwise the guy cutting the disc will have to undo your premastering. If he cant undo it, he won't be able to cut the disc.
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True, though over the years the term "mastering" has grown to include both processing and media prep.
 
masteringhouse said:
True, though over the years the term "mastering" has grown to include both processing and media prep.
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True, but over the years mastering engineers have not had to deal with the limitations of vinyl. The most recent generation of mastering engineers (especially the guys that don't charge much) have been turned out without ever needing to know anything about cutting vinyl. (same thing with mix engineers) It's too easy for them to just do what they normally would do to a CD, which can be a disaster.
 
masteringhouse said:
True, though over the years the term "mastering" has grown to include both processing and media prep.
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Farview said:
True, but over the years mastering engineers have not had to deal with the limitations of vinyl. The most recent generation of mastering engineers (especially the guys that don't charge much) have been turned out without ever needing to know anything about cutting vinyl. (same thing with mix engineers) It's too easy for them to just do what they normally would do to a CD, which can be a disaster.
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And, correct me if I'm wrong, even back in vinyl's heyday, there was only mastering TO vinyl, there was very little, if any, premastering FOR vinyl that was done before the mastering engineer got it. Pretty much, the mix was the mix, and any premastering and mastering was done at the plant.

I'm not quite sure just why it should be any different when mastering for vinyl now.

G.
 
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I think that it is prudent to take a listen to the work of the engineer who is going to "master" your record.

I also think that you should seek the advice of ME's who have successfully DONE "pre-mastering" for vinyl and ignore most other advice.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
And, correct me if I'm wrong, even back in vinyl's heyday, there was only mastering TO vinyl, there was very little, if any, premastering FOR vinyl that was done before the mastering engineer got it. Pretty much, the mix was the mix, and any premastering and mastering was done at the plant.

I'm not quite sure just why it should be any different when mastering for vinyl now.

G.
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A bit more involved than a straight transfer, though I've heard some places like Motown essentially took this route. In some cases there were two EQs setup on a tape-based delay line so that quick changes to levels could be made and heard before it was cut. They would setup one EQ according to predetermined parameters, while the one was being processed the other EQ would be setup and switched before the next song.

Sounds like fun!
 
masteringhouse said:
A bit more involved than a straight transfer, though I've heard some places like Motown essentially took this route. In some cases there were two EQs setup on a tape-based delay line so that quick changes to levels could be made and heard before it was cut. They would setup one EQ according to predetermined parameters, while the one was being processed the other EQ would be setup and switched before the next song.

Sounds like fun!
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That it does! :)

The question I have, Tom, is not so much whether it was a straight transfer or not - I'm sure there was often much in the way of premastering - but when and where in the process it happened.

I could be wrong about this. And I suppose it did vary somewhat from production - that there was no one specific forumla across the board - but I was under the impression that most of such work was performed by the ME, not the mix engineer; that it was the ME that was trusted with taking the 2mix and doing what was needed from there. In effect, pre-mastering was what most folks now call "mastering" - i.e. polishing the 2mix with an eye to making the mastering work best - and then the actual mastering was all the RIAA EQ and making the cut and so forth. All of which was typically under the jurisdiction of the ME.

G.
 
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SouthSIDE Glen said:
but I was under the impression that most of such work was performed by the ME, not the mix engineer; that it was the ME that was trusted with taking the 2mix and doing what was needed from there.
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Sure, maybe I misunderstood the question ...
Premastering was mastering then since they created the "master" for production and performed the processing to create it. With CD it's a premaster because it's not a glass master or stamper used to create the final product, except if your doing duplication instead of replication then a CD-R is a master for the most part.

Semantics ...

I find it interesting that in England during 60's engineers started in mastering before becoming balance engineers (mix engineers). At least that was the path for Geoff Emerick. While it seems backwards nowadays, it make sense in that a mix engineer has a greater appreciation for not "fixing it in mastering" and getting things right from the start. I believe that's one of the reasons he is one of the top engineers in music.
 
masteringhouse said:
I find it interesting that in England during 60's engineers started in mastering before becoming balance engineers (mix engineers). At least that was the path for Geoff Emerick. While it seems backwards nowadays, it make sense in that a mix engineer has a greater appreciation for not "fixing it in mastering" and getting things right from the start. I believe that's one of the reasons he is one of the top engineers in music.
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That is interesting; I never heard that before.

Hmmm...in a perfect world, maybe one should have to start as ME and work their way back through mixing and tracking before they can get in FRONT of the microphone???? ;) :D

...Yeah, that'll happen two days after I buy the entire world a Coke and we all actually sing in perfect harmony.:rolleyes:;):D

G.
 
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