Recording Technology: Digital, Rap/Hip-hop and the Decline of Music

[SteveM]

OK, this has to stop. Music is not responsible for violence. Rap is not responsible for the decline of sound quality. I will debate this with anyone but I find it almost impossible to believe that the members of this forum actually think this. These comments are at the very best elitist, and at the very worst racist. Care to debate it?

Sure I'll debate about the violence. I do think it but I don't know how you'd get the idea that it would be racist? Do you also think that uprise in drug usage amongst teens in the late 60s to the present time wasn't influenced by the music and counter culture of that time?

 

[FALKEN]

Supposing that were true, since that music isn't popular nowadays, it must mean that nobody's doing drugs anymore?

Maybe it was the drugs that influenced the music, not the other way around?

Can you prove a causation or only a correlation?

 

[Whoopysnorp]

I have a real big problem with the idea that music can make anybody behave a certain way. Popular music can't induce anybody to commit any kind of antisocial acts they weren't going to commit anyway. Or do you suppose that Charles Manson wouldn't have done the things he did if the Beatles hadn't released Helter Skelter?

I don't know where you would obtain statistics showing what percentage of people who enjoy listening to music with lyrics depicting crimes actually go out and commit crimes, but I guarantee you it is minuscule.

 

[Whoopysnorp]

As usual, Frank Zappa has already made my point better than I ever could: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ISil7IHzxc

 

[Beck]

OK, this has to stop. Music is not responsible for violence. Rap is not responsible for the decline of sound quality. These comments are at the very best elitist, and at the very worst racist. Care to debate it?

Of course music is not the only thing that breeds violent cultures. However, music both influences and is influenced by the culture. It sends messages, and in turn those messages and sentiments are acted upon by people, including other musicians that write more music, which in turn starts the cycle again.

Children raised in inner city environments are regularly exposed to harsh, violent music… not just the words (when you can understand them) but the attitude… degradation, disrespect, anger, hate, murder, revenge, etc. You can’t build a healthy society like that. It’s not possible.

Of course rap is part of why sound quality has declined. There was nothing to it… the early stuff sounded like it was produced on a boom box. You don’t need a super studio with all the bells and whistles to record that crap. You don’t need tools or skill so of course the quality declines. The music industry has become an industry of amateurs and that’s exactly how it sounds.

Elitists are useful since they’re the ones that preserve some semblance of culture that people will eventually run back to after the smoke clears and the fad is over. The only racism I see is when people insist I must embrace a type of music just because it came out of and is popular in the black community. Sorry, no white guilt over here. That has never worked for me.

I will debate this with anyone but I find it almost impossible to believe that the members of this forum actually think this.

Nothing to debate... it's an observation... and it's only this member (maybe a couple others ahead of their time) thinking out loud and seeing who else is out here that is not taking the guided tour through life. You can be lead around by the nose if you like, by teachers, preachers, politicians, peers, etc, but you really miss a lot.

 

[SteveM]

Supposing that were true, since that music isn't popular nowadays, it must mean that nobody's doing drugs anymore?

Maybe it was the drugs that influenced the music, not the other way around?

Can you prove a causation or only a correlation?

It was drugs that influenced the music but the music (and media) helped promote the use of it. I'm not saying nobody was using drugs or there were no gangs before the music I'm just saying the media and the music helped to spread it out. I love the pyschedelic music so I'm not complaining about that. But violence is different. It was the availability of the drugs but also the spreading of the message. Same with the gangs the music didn't make kids violent, they were already violent it was the availabilty of the guns and the demand for them that changed. One kid gets a gun so now they all have to. So now you've got violent kids in smaller cities all packing guns, most of them scared to death but feeling stuck because of peer pressure.

LIke Beck said. I guess it's not a debate it's just an observation. There's no way for me to prove it except to say I think the media influences everything. The media not the music by itself! Marijuanas always been around but I don't think many were using it in baby boomers parents generation. There was no demand for it.

 

[SteveM]

Funny, as I was getting in my car this morning there was a debate about this on the radio. I guess something is going on in Congress. I just want to say that I don't believe in censorship. The only other possible reason I see for the rise in gangs in smaller cities is because of the influx of the Latin population. But I would hate to say that because I'll be accused of being a racist. But there are not many white gangs in this area, though there are some. But who am I to speak being of Sicilian decent. I could show you a horrifying picture of my Great Nano.

 

[ausrock]

Steve,

Frankly, there's nothing racist about it, it's a cold hard fact, even on my side of the planet, that the "gang mentality" is predominant in certain ethnic groups...............unfortunately, apart from their cultural "habits", out here, they are heavily influenced by the American gang culture.

 

[SteveM]

As usual, Frank Zappa has already made my point better than I ever could: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ISil7IHzxc

Prett interesting. I'm surprised that Frank claimed to be a conservative and even referred to Soddom and Gommorah, being the athiest he was. This thread may be have to be moved to the cave.

 

[FALKEN]

Funny, as I was getting in my car this morning there was a debate about this on the radio. I guess something is going on in Congress. I just want to say that I don't believe in censorship. The only other possible reason I see for the rise in gangs in smaller cities is because of the influx of the Latin population. But I would hate to say that because I'll be accused of being a racist. But there are not many white gangs in this area, though there are some. But who am I to speak being of Sicilian decent. I could show you a horrifying picture of my Great Nano.

Again you are confusing a correlation with a causation. You said that the only other possible reason for the the rise in gangs in smaller cities is because of the influx of Latin population. Sure, there might be a correlation between an increase in Latin population and an increase in gang violence, but you cannot prove that one caused the other. From what you are saying, one could infer that there are gangs wherever there are latin people, and that statement must be false. Therefore, your logic is false, and backed by nothing more than opinion, which means its racist.

 

[SteveM]

Again you are confusing a correlation with a causation. You said that the only other possible reason for the the rise in gangs in smaller cities is because of the influx of Latin population. Sure, there might be a correlation between an increase in Latin population and an increase in gang violence, but you cannot prove that one caused the other. From what you are saying, one could infer that there are gangs wherever there are latin people, and that statement must be false. Therefore, your logic is false, and backed by nothing more than opinion, which means its racist.

Falken do you work for the ACLU? I'm pretty darn sure alot of the troubles were imported too but I do see what you are saying. It's possible that the immigrants were also victims of a higher gang scheme that was being pushed out out of the bigger cities. Though I wouldn't call them victims because they did make the choices. But it's possible they were lured in by the promise of money by selling drugs and carrying on as gangs.

 

[FALKEN]

There are many, many plausible explanations for why those people are in gangs, that have nothing to do with them being "latin". I bet you could think of 5 right now off the top of your head. IN fact, if you were to stick any group of people in place of latins it would sound just as bigoted, in your statements.

As for rap and the declining quality of music, I wholeheartedly disagree. In fact, rap music has consistently put forth the only interesting sounds in the last 10 years, IMO. It is pop music which is to blame. Whether that pop music happens to be country, rap, boy-groups, r n b, whatever is being pushed to the top of the charts in the last 10 years, it has almost all come from talentless individuals. To pigeonhole it all on rap is irresponsible. There are many talented individuals in rap music today. And if you think the style in and of itself doesn't have any significant merit, because it's repetitive, you would be discounting countless musical movements over the history of mankind, from blues to funk to 5000 years of indian hindustani, basically anything that didn't originate from dead white german guys.

And no, I don't work for the ACLU. I am just a musicologist.

 

[SteveM]

There are many, many plausible explanations for why those people are in gangs, that have nothing to do with them being "latin". I bet you could think of 5 right now off the top of your head.

But I'm not saying it's BECAUSE they are latin. They just ARE latin gangs. Just like most of the mob was Sicilians. In a sense it IS insignificant to the problem.

 

[FALKEN]

But I'm not saying it's BECAUSE they are latin. They just ARE latin gangs. Just like most of the mob was Sicilians. In a sense it IS insignificant to the problem.

ok....but would you blame mob violence on hard working god fearing italians moving into town? that isn't fair.

 

[Trumpspade]

Children raised in inner city environments are regularly exposed to harsh, violent music… not just the words (when you can understand them) but the attitude… degradation, disrespect, anger, hate, murder, revenge, etc. You can’t build a healthy society like that. It’s not possible.

Children raised in the inner city is exposed to far more detriment than (Rap Music) or what you call violent music. That is just a drop in the bucket! The world is exposed to violent music and violent behavior as a whole. Would you blame Rap on Bin Ladens behavior as well? Building a healthy society, relevant to the inner city, starts at home. If the parents did not receive a valued education, how can they raise a child to look, talk, and dress properly? If you really want my opinion, and I don't want to sound like I am creating a racial divide, Black people as a whole, never recovered from slavery. There is a direct correlation between inadequate schools, uneven social development, and an unfair legal system, and the direction inner city youths are headed. Slavery may have happened long ago, but there is still residue of it's existence. I'll leave that alone for now!

 

[Whoopysnorp]

To anybody who is interested in the conditions that could lead to a person falling into a life of urban violence, I'd highly suggest reading My Bloody Life: The Making of a Latin King by Reymundo Sanchez. In the book he describes a lot of trauma that he experienced, and he sure as hell doesn't point the finger at the lyrics of popular music.

 

[Trumpspade]

To anybody who is interested in the conditions that could lead to a person falling into a life of urban violence, I'd highly suggest reading My Bloody Life: The Making of a Latin King by Reymundo Sanchez. In the book he describes a lot of trauma that he experienced, and he sure as hell doesn't point the finger at the lyrics of popular music.

I'll put that on a list of books to check out!

 

[SteveM]

ok....but would you blame mob violence on hard working god fearing italians moving into town? that isn't fair.

OK Falken you have a pretty keen eye. The increase in gangs was not BECAUSE of the latinos but with the increase in latinos also came an increase in latino gangs. Does that work.

Is still think you work for the ACLU.

 

[Beck]

Children raised in the inner city is exposed to far more detriment than (Rap Music) or what you call violent music. That is just a drop in the bucket! The world is exposed to violent music and violent behavior as a whole. Would you blame Rap on Bin Ladens behavior as well? Building a healthy society, relevant to the inner city, starts at home. If the parents did not receive a valued education, how can they raise a child to look, talk, and dress properly? If you really want my opinion, and I don't want to sound like I am creating a racial divide, Black people as a whole, never recovered from slavery. There is a direct correlation between inadequate schools, uneven social development, and an unfair legal system, and the direction inner city youths are headed. Slavery may have happened long ago, but there is still residue of it's existence. I'll leave that alone for now!

Music has an impact in societies where music is prevalent and important to the society, which it is in the West and America, including the black community. Being that this is a recording forum it's a likely place to discuss the impact of music in particular.

Of course you cannot trace all woes to music… I never said that. This is one of those threads (well I guess every thread is) that you have to be careful not to be misled by another poster’s misunderstanding of what I or someone else has stated.

But as for the influence music has… as we say in the social sciences, “You are who you talk to.” People communicate through music and it is very powerful. Music alone can make a person feel happy, sad, hopeless, encouraged, etc. Add lyrics that degrade, scold, whine, scream, blame, threaten, boast about murder, rape, etc. What do think that will do to a person that listens to it all the time… nothing? Though it is not the only influence, it is not a drop in the bucket. The level of exposure to the music and its status in the lives of the group makes it a significant social influence.

The anger and despair in much of popular music can be both an expression of the way an “artist” feels and an influence on others. It gets passed along and is as much a part of a culture as hair styles, clothing, slang, and any other behaviors a person picks up from their environment… including values… a sense of right and wrong.

I don’t know about the never recovering from slavery idea. Some of the best… happiest and most encouraging music in history came from the fathers and grandfathers of these current artists with no soul.

 

[Beck]

Well anyway (back on topic), my main point in the first place is that a technology can limit musical expression. Multi-tracking is relatively new in the history of music. We interact with our machines like we interact with other musicians. What we hear influences the creative process.

Part of that process is selecting timbres that are pleasing to the ear. In the course we are also avoiding tones that are unpleasant. If we are using a recording format that has some flaw, for example a digital format with a harsh high end, we subconsciously compensate by accentuating the frequency ranges that the format is better at reproducing.

Hence my premise is that digital recording has changed popular music over the last couple decades, and IMO the change is for the worse. Popular music is less complex and less interesting than it used to be for my tastes. Intricate music is heavily dependant on upper-mid and high frequencies. When I say intricate and sophisticated I'm talking about everything from classical to Earth Wind & Fire, to Led Zeppelin.