what to do with $15k? mildly confused

[andrew montreal]

Hi there guys,

I have finally been blessed with the opportunity to upgrade my studio.

With the $15k I would like to improve all elements of my equipment (mics, preamps, converters, monitors, and plugins). I feel like I am going in circles though. It is not so much a question of which preamps or which converters, so much as a question of my workflow and what is necessary. How much money should go towards what elements in the chain? These are some of the issues I am mulling over:

1. Ninety percent of the time I am either tracking no more than two channels (or using virtual instruments), so I am looking at getting at least two good quality channels of preamp and two channels of AD/DA. That being said, I occasionally track four channels. I would also like to avoid having to send my monitor signal through my Mackie board (***anyone want to buy one***) simply to have a mute button and volume control.

2. I am very interested in the idea of having two pairs of high-end preamps that will complement each other well, though I don't know if this is essential. The idea being that some mixes are very dense and require pristine tracks, though I would like to be able to also track warm/softer signals as well. I predominantly track acoustic instruments and voice.

3. I am also questioning whether a stereo channel of EQ and/or compression would be a good investment, or would I be better off putting that money into something else. Since I use virtual instruments, am I better off investing in plugins?

4. In terms of mics, should I invest in one outstanding mic, buy a couple of ribbon mics, replace my small diaphragm mics...? How much of my budget should go towards this issue?

Presently my equiment includes:

- Neumann U87 from 1968 (pair)
- AKG C414EB with the CK12 capsule
- Audio Technica AT4047
- Shure SM81 (pair) ***anyone want to buy a pair?***
- Shure SM57 (pair)
- Sennheiser MD421
- AKG D112

- Presonus MP20
- Presonus ACP-22
- RNC Compressor
- Lang Electronics PEQ-2 - mindblowingly hot
- Mackie 1642-VLZPro

- MOTU 1224 (2) ***anyone want to buy a pair***
- Mac G5 2.0GHz dual core

- Mackie HR824 ***anyone want to buy a pair?***

- Logic Pro 7.2
- Waves SSL4000
- Audio Ease Altiverb
- Sony Inflator
- Native Instruments Komplete
- Native Instruments Kore ***anyone want to buy one?***
- East/West Symphonic Orchestra Platinum Bundle
- Yellow Tools Majestic and Culture
- MOTU Symphonic


I am considering:

- Microtech Gefell UM92.1S (great price right now. really warm.)
- Royer R-121 or AEA ribbon mics
- Neumann KM184 (2)
- Electro Voice RE-20
- Shure SM7B

- API 512 (2) with A Design 500HR
- AMS Neve 1073 DPA

- Rosetta 200 with Fireface 400
- Rosetta 800
- Big Ben?
- Get the preamps with their own converters along with a Benchmark DAC or something similar.

- Dynaudio BM6A II
- Dynaudio BM5A

Any thoughts on any of these issues would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Treeline]

Take ten thousand and put it in a variable annuity with a zero principal loss guarantee and a five year step up so you'll have a head start on post employment income. Take the other five grand and think about studio treatment and the Rosetta 200 setup. Maybe upgrade your mixer to an Onyx. For Christ's sakes, don't blow the whole wad on gear.

 

[dgatwood]

Buy a new car.

But seriously, I like the suggestion of investing most of it in something high yield that pays interest once a year or so---CDs, tax-free muni bonds, whatever. Then use the interest to buy a new piece of gear once a year.

If you plan to spend a good chunk of that up front, though, yeah, room treatment then broaden your mic locker---maybe a couple of ribbons---then better pres.

I'm not convince that a Big Ben would be a good investment unless you need to drive a whole boatload of devices off a single reference clock. Clocks in most modern converters are really rather stable.

 

[lasagne]

Sell all your gear to me for $1k. Then you've got $16k to spend, which opens up a whole new world of purchasing opportunities.

 

[kojdogg]

Take ten thousand and put it in a variable annuity with a zero principal loss guarantee and a five year step up so you'll have a head start on post employment income. Take the other five grand and think about studio treatment and the Rosetta 200 setup. Maybe upgrade your mixer to an Onyx. For Christ's sakes, don't blow the whole wad on gear.

This is probably the best advice of course, but assuming you're going to spend money on gear, here are my two cents:

Have you considered the Apogee instead of the Rosetta 800-- might it be a better fit?
I have Adam A7's which I love, though they might not represent the kind of upgrade you're looking for in monitors. Some end users have raised issue with the quality control. Others have stated that paired with a good sub, that this is one of the best monitor setups you can get in nearfields (edit: at this price point-- there are plenty of better monitors out there)
I have a Langevin DVC (two pres, two shelving eq's and two channels of ELOP compression) that I love for tracking just about anything. I got one in excellent condition used for $1100, and I'd recommend that thing to anyone.
I have a pair of A-Designs P-1's, which I also love, in an 500HR rack. I really dig the 500HR rack (well, because it was cheap), but could you possibly be better served by getting a 6 space lunch box? You could get the 512c's you want, plus a couple of sweet eq's (the A-Designs Pultec clones are supposed to be lovely and are a bit over a grand a pop). You could get your two sets of stereo pres in that thing, plus 2 channels of eq or compression. Some hardcore audiophiles will say that the 500 series pres don't get the same kind of power that a standalone 2 channel pre will with a hefty power supply. There are so many choices in the API 500 series units these days. The Great River 500 series version of the NV pre is way cheaper than the stand alone (especially if you were to buy two), and the Chandler Germanium 500 pre is also cheaper.
If you want a nice 2 channel compressor how about something like an API 2500? I like the TFPro P38 as a stereo compressor, though you can't do dual mono, nor can you really get tons of clean compression (I happen to have one for sale ). TFPro also makes a double channel strip-- the P10 (I believe). You could get two Distressors, two Crane Song Trakkers, etc. There certainly is no shortage of slutty compressors for those with deep pockets.
(Edit: for EQ's, there's some early love/buzz for the new A-Designs Hammer EQ, though you could get a Langevin Mini-Massive, or one of the many Pultec clones out there. The Speck ATC eq's are supposed to be great for the money (especially the transformer version). You could also get a pair of Chameleon Labs 7602's and get a set of good pres and excellent eq's, or go a little more upscale to some Vintech 73 or 81 copies and get better pres and eq's of the same Neve 1073 flavor).
If you want to go plugins, many folks love the UAD plugins, though the hardware card processing is kind of a downside. If they were native, you could probably run a lot more instances.
I have a buddy who has used hardware LA-2A's, 1176's, Distressors and has some API gear, and he loves the URS plugs for compression and EQ.

 

[kojdogg]

made a couple of edits/additions

 

[Beck]

Open a new (old) door

http://www.atrservice.com/products/item_details.php?item_id=36&dept_id=3

 

[andrew montreal]

thanks for the words, people. though i am junkin' out on the equipment right now, i will take a long breath before committing to any equipment purchases. i feel like i have already made that mistake once.

room treatment? DIY or get someone to do it?

to kojdogg, thanks for the very complete response. lots of good advice there, though i am a little more concerned with which part of my chain should firstly be upgraded than actual models. and how much to put towards each part of the chain. when the time comes, there is an amazing shop in montreal that lets you test drive tons of gear at home before choosing what you want.

 

[mshilarious]

I like Treeline's post. Also, you have not told us:

- what you record
- what your recording environment is like
- what kind of results you are getting now
- what you don't like about the results you are getting


With the gear you already have, if you feel something is lacking, and you haven't spent $5K on your room to date, that's probably a no-brainer right there.

 

[kojdogg]

I've heard/read knowledgeable people say that mics and converters are of great importance because they transduce sound between drastically different forms (mics: physical sound into electrical sound; converters: analog into digital), and others point out that monitoring is crucial because you make all of your decisions about things like mic placement and mixing through your monitoring. Before any of that, however, the sound in your room has to be good, so if you don't have a good acoustic environment for recording and/or mixing, attend to that (via treatment) so that the sound has a good environment to occur and resonate in. Before that, make sure your instruments are good so that good sound is produced. Mic pres are the conductor for sound from the pre to the converter, so select those based on a desire for transparency or character.

I guess that would be it for me imho: good instruments (or performers), good acoustic environment, good mics, good converters, good monitors, good mic pres. Many people would bump up monitoring ahead of converters or mics though.

 

[Renascent]

Depends what you do. if you do alot of 2track or mono stuff, then get a really nice 2channel pre (maybe $3000bucks tops) and perhaps decent converters. Put the rest into a savings account or something as a few mentioned before. Don't buy gear you don't need!
You've got a bunch of nice mic's already. The greatest mics still sound like garbage through crappy pre's, and you'd be suprised how nice a 57 sounds through a nice Neve pre!
$15k is a beautiful thing, just dont overstretch it. Unless you're doing significant commercial business from your home studio, $15k is way more then you'd need to spend to have a really nice setup, and you already have a head start
Cheers
Scott

 

[boingoman]

You've got a bunch of nice mic's already. The greatest mics still sound like garbage through crappy pre's,

Huh, I don't find that to be true, except for the part where he already has some nice mics. I usually find that crappy mics sound like crap, and nice mics sound nice.

and you'd be suprised how nice a 57 sounds through a nice Neve pre!

That is awesome, assuming 1) you have actually heard this combo and 2) he ever plans to use a 57 and a Neve.


I do agree that he has a pretty decent rig going.

 

[darnold]

whatever you do buy used. i think thats my best advice cause it will save you alot of money when you buy and when you sell.

i also agree that there is no reason for you to purchase a bunch of gear you wont be using that often. i think a good set of monitors to start with. i can vouch for the dynaudio bm6 as being excellent. also recommended were the Adams. i have not used the Adams but i would probably put them in big personal preference area which is good if they really work for you. ive been using Truth Audio TA1As and feel they work great for me compared to the dynaudios but i also wouldnt flat out recommend them to anyone because they have their sound. i think the dynaudios are more neutral and just a damn good set up.

next recommendation would be to get those u87s you have modded. i have heard nothing but amazing things about vintage modded u87s. those will easily serve your go to mic needs. if you need more mics in your collection then i would go with the more budget mics. maybe a good set of small diaphragms and a couple of neutral large diaphragms like AT4050s or another set of AKG c414s. then throw in you drum mics of choice.

as already recommended a good da converter would be another good place and a nice solid pre.

probably dont need to spend anywhere near 15k to get what you need.

danny

 

[jaybriggs84]

You can get a 2 channels of mytek conversion new for 900 or so, and then get a really nice 2 channel pre, like a great river, there's tons of options.

If it was me, I'd consider getting a pro tools HD system

 

[andrew montreal]

wow. thanks for all the words again.

as for what i record, i do mostly music for others' projects (video, film, and now a little TV work). rarely do i record bands so more than four great channels is unnecessary. i have spent the past year in virtual instrument world, so i haven't been dealing with my own capturing of audio for awhile. last week i picked up the u87's and the c414eb for a great price second-hand. when i listened to the mics through the presonus i thought they sounded great, though harsh in the upper-mids (possibly the preamp). and honestly, my ears are virgin when it comes to stuff like API or Neve so i don't know what the comparison is like. but when i heard what my converters were doing to the signal, i couldn't believe that i had ever gotten anything good out of them. total loss of clarity and depth. also, i find my general monitoring to be a little harsher than i'd like. again, could be the converters. as for my previous recordings, i find that there is a general lack of clarity and depth. high-mids are harsh. i am not sure which part(s) of the chain is most responsible for that though. that's why i am asking if people know where my system is lacking.

the room where i mix and record smaller instruments and voice is 9' X 10' X 10'. it is treated with primacoustic and bed mattresses, but nothing professionally done though. the room where i would like to get back to tracking is around 13' X 15' X 10'. this room is not treated at all. i would love to treat it though i am not sure how i should approach that. do i get someone to do it for me? i would definitely like to deaden it somewhat, while still keeping some of its liveliness. one bonus about our old building is that none of the walls are parallel. ahh, vintage.

i am already planning to have the 2 u87's modded by klaus heyne. very excited about that, though it will take at least a year for that modification to occur.

as for the preamps, if i had two channels of one preamp type, let's say the AMS Neve 1073 DPA, would that make it more difficult to seperate instruments in denser mixes? is that enough versatility? what if it doesn't do the job for certain sounds. yet, if i don't really need two sets of preamps, my money could go towards other elements. is there a wiser choice for the type of preamp if i only get one type?

as for the converters, how do i get two smoking channels of AD and DA while still having a couple more of each for other signals and reamping if necessary?

i hope that helps in getting a better idea of where i'm at. again, thank you so very much for your collective wisdom.

 

[mshilarious]

If you can at all manage it, I would move mixing into the bigger room as well as tracking. A small, near cubical room is just bad news. It would require so much treatment as to essentially make it dead.

The goal in treatment is to make the room flat, not dead, and also to remove early reflections around the mix position, and make the reflections elsewhere diffuse. It's generally good to have nonparallel walls, but they need to be a minimum of 15 degrees or so, not simply out of square, to have much of an effect. Also you need to be able to establish symmetry around the mix position.

For "smaller instruments and voice", the mics you have are fine, replace with SM81s with the KM184s if you desire. That is, your mics are fine IF they work well with your voice or the voices you record. If one of the U87s kills on your voice, and you don't do other people's voices, then you are good. Otherwise, you could look at picking up a wider range of mics (the SM7, for example) if you felt like you needed to be able to cover any situation.

If you sound horrible on the U87, well then you'll need to go shopping! But a project studio like yours should be able to have a very focused gear list.

 

[J_Bursch]

Acoustics

I've gotten some good help on acoustic treatments from the Recording Studio Design Forum at www.johnlsayers.com. There are plenty of good DIY treatment ideas. Also, I would recomend the book Build it like the Pros, by Rod Gervais. There is excellent info in there too. But before dropping $15K on equipment you should definitely invest in acoustic treatment. It will be hard to get a great sounding mix in a bad room no matter how great the equipment.

 

[andrew montreal]

mshilarious,

would the fact that my equipment would take up a good portion of the bigger room not be a problem in terms of tracking space? perhaps i could set it up in a corner, though not too close to the corner. logistically though, i don't think i will be able to move the mixing monitoring station into the bigger room.