Do you always set-up a click track with your "client"?

[cusebassman]

To get the right bpm, I just have the 'artist' start playing some repetitive portion of the song while I monitor it, and I have the click play in the control room through the board but not out to the player's headphones. Then I try to get a sense of how fast he/she is going, and set a prelim speed. When I notice that is too slow/too fast, I adjust. When it feels like the click is following along fairly consistently, I have them stop and then try to play along to it. If they then ask for changes, I'll change the speed. It takes a while, especially when you aren't used to click-syncing, but it doesn't take long to get used it, or at least Ive found that to be the case.

 

[R.A.E]

I think there is a distinction between a groove and musical flow. By that I mean, some music that is groove driven does require a steady bpm. A good drummer who has learned to play with (or rather around) a click, can play a little behind the beat on a verse and a little ahead of the beat in the chorus (which allows the music to breath) yet the groove (at a set bpm) is consistant.

Now some music needs to flow - meaning the actual bpm may vary from section to section (sometimes significantly). In this case a click is a hinderance. Naturally, trying to overdub on a song where the bpm is changing can be very challenging (click or no click) - and it is normally best to record as a group.

That being said, a drummer who indicates that a click prohibits the groove simply does not know how to play around the click. Often drummers feel they must be a slave to the click - trying to hit exactly on the click (in which case, they do indeed lose the ability to breath with the music). However, if you learn to work with (and around) the click (and often a midi groove using conga, clave, etc is easier to play with than a basic 1/4 note click) - a click does not compromise the groove it actually fortifies the groove.

I've been drumming for over 50 years (40 years as a gigging musician) and the 1st 20 plus years we never used click tracks. When clicks started to become the norm - I like most drummers first exposed to a click (dispite 20 years experiance) had a hard time playing to a click. As a result, I lost some session work (to drummers who had learned how to lay to a click). I said all the same crap "the click sucks the life out of the music" "I can't groove", etc. - Well it didn't take me long to figure out that instead of complaining about it - I better figure it out or I wouldn't be getting session calls.

I most cases - a click is not a bad thing!

pwned

you shut the thread down with this one my friend. I have to completely agreed with what you said. Then you said drumming for over 50 years...and well...that explains why you know what you're talking about.

Its all about not slaven to the click but using it as a guide.

 

[Todzilla]

I've never played with a good drummer who couldn't play easily to a click.

Not saying they're not out there...

 

[RAMI]

I've never played with a good drummer who couldn't play easily to a click.

Not saying they're not out there...

Let me wade through that double negative and see if I understand what you're saying.

Did you mean that every good drummer you played with was able to play to a click?

 

[pelon916]

...

i've been recording regularly for 15 years and we never used a click track as a group. we just isolated the rhythm instruments and recorded. with experienced musicians who sound good together you can do without a click.

i've been playing guitar since 1988 and i never even learned to use a metronome until i started multi-tracking at home.

it took me a while to get used to it but now i don't like to record without one.

and believe you can easily "groove" with a click. it depends on how good you get at setting it up.

i don't ever use a "ding-click-click-click" setup anymore. instead i prefer to make a simple 1-2 bar drum beat in battery3 and loop it or even re-use a *simple* drum beat from a previous track.

each drum track can sound infinitely different depending on how you push/pull around it.

and also.. you can easily swing a click or midi beat, but you can also just set the click to play the beats that aren't swung and fill in the swung parts yourself.

personally i would prefer to record the rhythm section: drums and bass, maybe rhythm guitar, live and use them as the reference for the rest of the overdubs, but when you are alone or you really need precision (like for electronic music) it's often easier and it sounds much tighter (although it can be more stiff) to use a click or other set reference sound.

playing to a click takes practice like anything else, but once you learn how you can expand on it and change your feel any way you want while the click does its thing in the background.

 

[northern cali]

being that i pretty much only record rap vocals ive never used a click track, you ride tha beat so its uneeded, but i guess if someone asks for it i'll make one...

 

[scorpio01169]

i personally dont like click tracks...but then i'm old school. but again it depends on the band and the drummer...and also if they are using loops with acoustic drumming ie Linkin Park. but for bands that dont wanna use them i wont force them to.

 

[pelon916]

...

rap beats ARE click tracks..

click tracks are mechanical time keepers. beats are just really fancy click tracks with more bells and whistles.

click tracks are only really needed when you are laying the rhythm foundation of a song. for overdubs like vocals you can use the rhythm instrument tracks to keep your time, regardless if they were played with a click or not.

you can't really go in and add a click later, either the rhythm has to be recorded with the click or not (unless the "drums" are sampled and sequenced which will take care of the "click" aspect of it. unless the drummer is literally a machine any click you try to add later will be very difficult if not impossible to synch with the rest of the tracks.

if you are doing rap with live instruments, like The Roots or something similar then the choice is made at the beginning of the project to use a click or not. i would bet they use some kind of sequenced time keeping. even a repeating loop of sample counts as a click.. it doesn't have to be drums really.

and also.. everybody keeps saying how drummers hate clicks.. that's cool, then record the rhythm guitar or keys to a click and have the drummer use those tracks.

 

[SonicAlbert]

Click tracks, wow that's kind of a loaded subject. Click tracks are essential for film recording.

But if it's a band being recorded, why use a click track? Once the drums are laid in, that's the click track. If tracks are going to be laid down one at a time, and the drums aren't first, then I think drum loops/beats in the right feel are much better than a click track. Loops are a lot easier to play with musically, and are certainly just as metronomic.

I would not say that a click track is required for a typical band recording, not at all. In fact, I think that in most cases a click track could likely inhibit and frustrate the musicians, especially if they aren't used to working with click.

 

[pezking]

But if it's a band being recorded, why use a click track? Once the drums are laid in, that's the click track.

Yeah, but what happens when the drummer strays out of time here and there? By the time you come to do the guitar (or whatever) overdubs it's too late to change it, and you've gotta waste time figuring out exactly how the drummer strays out of time so you can play along with it, or settle with a guitar track that seems to stray out of time from the drums.

I think it's a lot to expect a drummer to keep such strict timing over a 3min+ song. When the band plays together the timing probably sways as much, but the difference is that everyone sways by the same amount, and you tend not to notice.

 

[SonicAlbert]

Yeah, but what happens when the drummer strays out of time here and there?

You get a different drummer that can actually play time. Seriously, you get a good drummer.

If the drummer can't keep time in a manner appropriate to the song without a click, I guarantee that trying to play to a click is going to frustrate the hell out of him. And everybody else. It will take ten times as long to record a song, and in the end it will probably still not be right.

I think it's a lot to expect a drummer to keep such strict timing over a 3min+ song.

It's not, good drummers do it every day.

 

[timthetortoise]

I always set up a click just so I can piss off the drummer straight away LOL
I think today's Daw systems have immense capabilities, and playing to a click is very important to mixing "in the box" as it were. That being said, most of the world's best recording were done without it. If I'm doing the arrangements and tracking instruments, there will be a click track because I don't feel confined by it. If it's someone else's dime, I'm open to whatever makes them play their best.

Oh, and if you are indeed a drummer, I'd recommend getting comfortable with the click, if you expect to do sessions for major recording companies that actually use live drummers.

Big +1 on this entire reply

 

[pezking]

You get a different drummer that can actually play time. Seriously, you get a good drummer

Well as a recording engineer it's my job to record what's shoved in front of me to the best of my ability. It's not for me to say to my client that they should replace their drummer.

It is completely unreasonable to expect a human being to remain in time with no guidance for the length of a song. Are you telling me that you could retrospectively add a click to your "good" drummer's tracks? I've worked with some very talented musicians some of whom are the best drummers available in the area. You just can't expect them to be able to count equal timing over 3 minutes or more. Try counting out 4/4 for that long and see how close you get. Then try it while thinking about which drums to hit whilst using both arms and both feet and remembering where in the song you are.

When a whole band play together, the tempo naturally sways - but to try to play along with a track which sways is pretty damn hard. You don't know when it sways or by how much! I'm not saying that it can't be done but so many times I've thought "dammit, if only we'd used a click track". Obviously a click track isn't always gonna be easy for the drummer, but it makes it a hell of a lot easier for the rest of the band in the long run.

 

[SonicAlbert]

I know some drummers that have incredible time.

Part of playing musically is not necessarily keeping a metronomic beat, but it should *sound and feel steady*, even if it pushes or holds back slightly. However, if that becomes obvious to the listener, then that drummer is not keeping good time.

Also, a metronomic beat will often be terrible for the feel of the song. A lot of songs need a little push here or there to feel right. Just setting up a metronome is not the solution, at least not in every situation.

Best yes, I know some amazing drummers that can keep a rock solid beat for as long as you need them to. They can do it by themselves or can play it to a click as well. If your drummers are having a hard time keeping a steady beat, the metronome is just going to frustrate them.

 

[donkeystyle]

You get a different drummer that can actually play time. Seriously, you get a good drummer.

If the drummer can't keep time in a manner appropriate to the song without a click, I guarantee that trying to play to a click is going to frustrate the hell out of him. And everybody else. It will take ten times as long to record a song, and in the end it will probably still not be right.



It's not, good drummers do it every day.

I disagree to an extent. there are definitely exceptions. the drummer for my old band wanders tempowise way too much live and when recorded it sounds like shit, but it only took him a very short time to figure out how to play to a click and now he prefers it.

I've noticed that with quarter notes the drummer has time to have little time fluctuations (groove) that are pleasant but aren't too off.

We did like to do scratch guitar tracks before we tracked for real though. we just recorded direct in and didn't worry about getting every note right as long is it was tight with the click. I think a lot of drummers don't know their songs well enough to just play to a click track alone and a scratch guitar track is a good guide.

 

[SonicAlbert]

I disagree to an extent. there are definitely exceptions. the drummer for my old band wanders tempowise way too much live and when recorded it sounds like shit, but it only took him a very short time to figure out how to play to a click and now he prefers it.

I've noticed that with quarter notes the drummer has time to have little time fluctuations (groove) that are pleasant but aren't too off.

We did like to do scratch guitar tracks before we tracked for real though. we just recorded direct in and didn't worry about getting every note right as long is it was tight with the click. I think a lot of drummers don't know their songs well enough to just play to a click track alone and a scratch guitar track is a good guide.

All really good points! Songwriters are generally going to start with a guitar or piano, so it does make sense in those circumstances to start with a scratch track to click. I think you are also right about keeping the "scratch" in the scratch track and not too crazy about it being perfect.

 

[Lectric_Lab]

good thread...and click tracks, well to me they work for some artists and others don't need it. I had a contry band come in one time, and if you've ever worked with the typical bar playing country artists they have this what we call, the 180, and they'll completely leave time and do a 180 and come back into the song on the up-beat, I've seen this happen alot...the last country band I had in the studio was so bad about it, that i took the rhythm guitar/singer, and click tracked him first and then overdubbed the rest of the musicians, as in play along. Rock/Blues etc bands on the other hand usually usually stay in the pocket and keep time better (sorry country guys) but it is true, I rarely use a click for a rock drummer, and tempo...another thing about tempo that's not being mentioned is the bass player, and to me drummers keep time, and bass players set tempo. Bands jamm, and choruses in songs vary time, if a band or soloist needs help, use a click track, if a song needs to have the correct temp from beginning to end, click it. I agree it varies with artists and songs.

 

[donkeystyle]

All really good points! Songwriters are generally going to start with a guitar or piano, so it does make sense in those circumstances to start with a scratch track to click. I think you are also right about keeping the "scratch" in the scratch track and not too crazy about it being perfect.

haha..

I don't know why I felt I had to explain a scratch track. hmmmm. well, I guess someone could read it and think it doesn't need to be perfect notewise or tight with the click.

 

[DaProTool]

I completely agree with practicing with the metronome click and recording without it... especially for ROCK music. I doubt many drummers use a click during LIVE performance and often LIVE music sounds better than the recording.

No drummer can't match the electronic device on tempo, but isn't that the point? The small, barely audible imperfections is what makes more it organic and ultimately sound better.

Good example of another imperfection that was built in to BFD drum sampling program was varying intensity of the drum hits... it just sounds better. So what if the songs will end up 1 or 2 bpm faster towards the end... isn't that what happens during live performance anyway?

Good producers and engineers strive to preserve the varying dynamics in the songs, aren't slight variances in time a part of that?

Now it's super hard to comp non-metered drum track... I don't even try. I'll pick the best take and go with it. Slight flaws define a real diamond... flawless it's just piece of plastic crap... (my analogy for the perfectly comped, perfectly timed, auto-tune corrected, etc. etc. etc.) but then again I like the garage, raw feel, I love the humming of the amps, loud breathing, slightly off tune vox, looper- fuzz pedals and screeching feedback. I strive for perfect imperfection.

 

[CGBMike]

I tend to use a click track as I'm a solo artist who likes to do a "rock band" arrangement, meaning insane amounts of overdubs. A click track just makes the whole process 100% easier.

Saying that, when I used to be in a band, our drummer couldn't keep in time in studio at all cos he was always so nervous. A click was the only way to get around that problem.

I agree that sometimes it can make a song feel jerky and less natural but a lot of the time musicians aren't perfectly in time with the click anyway so it still sounds natural.