16 bit recording

[barry c]

Windows 7 is great for recording. Your information there is, sad to say, incorrect.

And fine, I understand the PC dilemma. However, I ran my studio for five years on a relatively modest Core 2 Duo machine (which I still use at home and works great). Even a Pentium 4 will have more power than a small Tascam Portastudio.

If you're sharing with your wife, however, that's a different thing altogether. That's limited access and I can understand the problem.

And USB stuff? You mean the interface? It's probably cheaper than your portastudio. A Focusrite 2i2 is like $150.

And on 24-bit being deemed ancient...

That's not likely in the near future, I'm afraid. Until PCM audio gets replaced altogether with something better, 24-bit is here to stay. Keep in mind the THEORETICAL dynamic range of 24-bit audio is 144dB. We are YET to produce gear that has thermal noise beyond 120dB and that is the biggest hurdle for inventing audio formats with higher bit precision. Additionally, if we don't need more headroom, why bother with new formats and bit depths? 120dB is more than enough for even the quietest music. Ever heard of DSD (Direct Stream Digital)? It's a "superior" format that works on sample rates like 5 GIGAHertz and has a bit depth of 1-bit (yup, you read right, 1-bit). Apparently it sounds great, but it FAILED. Why? It can't be edited easily. There are still some studios that are able to record in DSD but for the most part, 24-bit audio is still king.

And it's not about buying new gear for the sake of progress. It's about making your life easier and being able to record something without hassle. If you're happy with the workflow of a portastudio, then by all means. It's just that personally, I could never go through the hassle of bouncing from device to device just to accomplish a simple recording. It would render me uninspired.

Reel to reel tape is a different thing altogether. People record on tape for its sound and it's still an accepted and often coveted way of recording. You said it yourself. Your friend gets better recordings on it and that's the trump card. Hell, if I could record on tape these days, I would. And yes, people use what they know and I understand that fully.

And regarding recording getting in the way...yes...that is my exact point. My personal preference is to minimize the hassle of recording as much as possible and that's what prompted me initiating this discussion.



Relax bro. Don't get your knickers in a knot over this. I'm not trying to slate anyone. I'm just sayin'...it's a little odd to record on a portastudio when, in my opinion, it's so much less of a hassle to do it on a computer.

Cheers

Sadly, you dont understand windows 7 and the issues it has caused folks. Most pcs come with it now which is one reason im leery.

Simple things that worked in xp are not working in windows 7. Might want to read up on it.

The point of it is to make music, not to record, at least I dont think.

So if the music is great, and sounds great, i dont think it matters what device you use. They dont announce thmselves when the recording is being played.

 

[Armistice]

Sadly, you dont understand windows 7 and the issues it has caused folks. Most pcs come with it now which is one reason im leery.

Simple things that worked in xp are not working in windows 7. Might want to read up on it.

I think you'll find that Mo Facta and a bunch of other people are using Win 7 without issues. I'm one of them, and I'm a very recent convert to PC recording, having owned portastudios forever... All good so far.

The point of it is to make music, not to record, at least I dont think.

So if the music is great, and sounds great, i dont think it matters what device you use. They dont announce thmselves when the recording is being played.

I would have said the point was to record music that sounds great. Devices are just tools. The quality of the tools and the skills of the operator very definitely announce themselves when the recording is being played. You can validate this in the MP3 forum.

Threads on this board go where they will and questions lead to other questions and opinions and comments and you as the OP can't really control that.

You seemed to have arrived here not to learn anything but to seek reinforcement for what you were going to do anyway, which is stick with what you've got - that's OK, we all do that to some extent - I was doing something not a million miles from what you're doing - it was a major time sucker and creativity drainer - exactly as Mo Facta, in his last post, has suggested - I eventually said "Enough!" and switched to PC recording. No regrets so far.

I don't think being snarky with people who are spending their time typing out useful information for you is the way to go. Just sayin'.

Enjoy your recording.

 

[gecko zzed]

I'm just sayin'...it's a little odd to record on a portastudio when, in my opinion, it's so much less of a hassle to do it on a computer.

I am just sayin' that too.

I used to use a Yamaha MT3X four-track cassette recorder. It was great . . . but compared to the PC, the workflow and efficiency were abominable. Going to a PC really helped to make my creativity flow, and I was able to focus more on music than on process.

 

[Mo Facta]

Sadly, you dont understand windows 7 and the issues it has caused folks. Most pcs come with it now which is one reason im leery.

Simple things that worked in xp are not working in windows 7. Might want to read up on it.

The point of it is to make music, not to record, at least I dont think.

So if the music is great, and sounds great, i dont think it matters what device you use. They dont announce thmselves when the recording is being played.

Firstly, I'm not even going to justify your assumption that I "don't understand Windows 7" with a rebuttal.

And what issues, exactly? 99% of "issues" are user error but the main issues are, of course, drivers. Many people who were using certain peripherals in XP (like myself) lost functionality when moving to Windows 7. I can't use my Roland PC-300 midi keyboard with W7 because of this exact problem. Nor can I use my MBox 1. There are workarounds though but they're minimal. I merely had to get a MIDI to USB converter for the PC-300 and it cost me $30. The other issue is 32-bit to 64-bit. Many plugins are rendered useless without using JBridge to port them to 64-bit. JBridge is the answer, though, and it works a charm. It too is $30. In any case, it's not a requirement to run 64-bit. I personally run a 32-bit DAW in 64-bit Windows 7. Issue mooted. Furthermore, there are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS (probably MILLIONS) of people successfully using Windows 7 to host their DAW. This is common knowledge to anyone who knows ANYTHING about audio and computers.

Anything else I'm missing?

Sadly, you're missing my point here and I apologize if I offended you by my comments or if I was unclear. I was simply pointing out that the hassle of bouncing from portastudio to PC and back is an obstacle in GETTING TO THE MUSIC. You're probably used to it by now, but wouldn't logic dictate that it would be better to accomplish all of your recordings in one location? Wouldn't that streamline the flow of inspiration and help get the recording process out of the way so you can get to making music? Sure, there will be a learning curve (which, I personally think is what is stopping you) but once you get going, it'll be piddle sticks. It's a lot easier than you think.

Cheers

 

[barry c]

I think you'll find that Mo Facta and a bunch of other people are using Win 7 without issues. I'm one of them, and I'm a very recent convert to PC recording, having owned portastudios forever... All good so far.



I would have said the point was to record music that sounds great. Devices are just tools. The quality of the tools and the skills of the operator very definitely announce themselves when the recording is being played. You can validate this in the MP3 forum.

Threads on this board go where they will and questions lead to other questions and opinions and comments and you as the OP can't really control that.

You seemed to have arrived here not to learn anything but to seek reinforcement for what you were going to do anyway, which is stick with what you've got - that's OK, we all do that to some extent - I was doing something not a million miles from what you're doing - it was a major time sucker and creativity drainer - exactly as Mo Facta, in his last post, has suggested - I eventually said "Enough!" and switched to PC recording. No regrets so far.

I don't think being snarky with people who are spending their time typing out useful information for you is the way to go. Just sayin'.

Enjoy your recording.

No, it's the attiude that comes with the answers. I didnt ask for anyone to pontificate as to why I wouldnt be on a pc, i gave an answer but i didnt have to.

Just asked about the theory of 16 bit, if the ear cant hear it, does the recording sound better?

Seems all forums are the same the people who frequent often know everything and anybody new doesnt. As if life only takes place on the forum and nobody does anything outside of it.

I belonged to a guitar forum and it was the same thing. You ask a question and people talk down to you as if you are their student.

And please stop with the "like so and so said, or I agree with so and so. Of course you do...

 

[barry c]

I am just sayin' that too.

I used to use a Yamaha MT3X four-track cassette recorder. It was great . . . but compared to the PC, the workflow and efficiency were abominable. Going to a PC really helped to make my creativity flow, and I was able to focus more on music than on process.

But you had to buy the pc right? did you buy a store one or a computer designed for audio? Big difference between cassette and portable digitals.

With no latency and a brif signal chain the sound might be better.

I think it would be less likely to focus as your not having to control everything at the pc chair.

Not having to click a mouse to record, and having to stand in the same place to record yourself singing.

portability has many benefits

 

[barry c]

Firstly, I'm not even going to justify your assumption that I "don't understand Windows 7" with a rebuttal.

And what issues, exactly? 99% of "issues" are user error but the main issues are, of course, drivers. Many people who were using certain peripherals in XP (like myself) lost functionality when moving to Windows 7. I can't use my Roland PC-300 midi keyboard with W7 because of this exact problem. Nor can I use my MBox 1. There are workarounds though but they're minimal. I merely had to get a MIDI to USB converter for the PC-300 and it cost me $30. The other issue is 32-bit to 64-bit. Many plugins are rendered useless without using JBridge to port them to 64-bit. JBridge is the answer, though, and it works a charm. It too is $30. In any case, it's not a requirement to run 64-bit. I personally run a 32-bit DAW in 64-bit Windows 7. Issue mooted. Furthermore, there are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS (probably MILLIONS) of people successfully using Windows 7 to host their DAW. This is common knowledge to anyone who knows ANYTHING about audio and computers.

Anything else I'm missing?

Sadly, you're missing my point here and I apologize if I offended you by my comments or if I was unclear. I was simply pointing out that the hassle of bouncing from portastudio to PC and back is an obstacle in GETTING TO THE MUSIC. You're probably used to it by now, but wouldn't logic dictate that it would be better to accomplish all of your recordings in one location? Wouldn't that streamline the flow of inspiration and help get the recording process out of the way so you can get to making music? Sure, there will be a learning curve (which, I personally think is what is stopping you) but once you get going, it'll be piddle sticks. It's a lot easier than you think.

Cheers

to me its not a bigger hassle than playing juggling act at the pc.

 

[gecko zzed]

But you had to buy the pc right? did you buy a store one or a computer designed for audio? Big difference between cassette and portable digitals.

Buy a PC? Well, yes and no. I had a PC already which I used. I started with a 600 mhz PC running Windows 98 that had 256mb of RAM and a 16GB hard disk. I ran Logic 3.7 on it successfully. As my computing skills, my thirst for better, and the demand for recording services increased, I've had succession of PCs that I've put together myself for recording. I can tackle extremely large and complex projects now without having to worry about technological limitations.

With no latency and a brif signal chain the sound might be better.

I agree that no latency and a brief signal chain are desirable qualities. But a latency of less than 6 milliseconds and a firewire cable are not dealbreakers for me; there are far greater influences on the quality of sound than those, for example, those associated with my own listening skills.

I think it would be less likely to focus as your not having to control everything at the pc chair.

Not having to click a mouse to record, and having to stand in the same place to record yourself singing.

Most of my audio work is PC and mouse work. Actual physical recording occupies a relatively and surprisingly small amount of time. My work is mostly in front of me, on the screen; highly visible and highly audible.

portability has many benefits

Agree. I have a separate portable rig.

 

[Mo Facta]

to me its not a bigger hassle than playing juggling act at the pc.

Well that's fine. Do what you will. I was only attempting to offer alternatives to streamline your workflow and to make your life easier. If you're happy with the way you're doing things, then so be it. Whatever blows your hair back.

However, to address the opinions you have formed as a result of this thread...

I'm sorry but the only person who started talking down [to me] and being narky was you, buddy. Please point out where I spoke down to you and I'll withdraw my comments and apologise. In any case, I'm not trying to dissuade you of anything. I'm only giving my best advice, as I always try to do. I have already apologized for offending you too so get over it, huh?

Just FYI, I have been making records for the last fifteen years and I have owned my own studio for almost a decade. Audio is my job, my career. I've had some hits on commercial radio, mixed movie scores, worked in broadcast, and mixed countless live shows so when it comes to audio, for the most part, I know what I'm doing. I have been exposed to computers since I was six years old and I've also been a professional musician and producer for a number of years. The last time I touched a portastudio was when I was seventeen but I know what that's all about too because that's where I came from. So, chances are, my knowledge on this subject DOES trump yours and it would probably serve you well to listen to me and others on this forum who take a lot of time out of their day to help people like you get better information about audio and to solve their problems. Nobody is trying to change your religion. Nobody has been rude to you. Nobody is telling you to change your whole life and give up your firstborn. We're just trying to help you.

Sorry you can't see that.

Cheers

 

[Armistice]

LOL, if you're not trolling, you're starting to do a really good impression of it.

The information you seek is widely available in any number of reference publications around the web. You didn't need to talk to anyone to get opinions.

99% of people who come through this place and talk to exactly the same people form the exact opposite impression of the place to what you've stated, but it must be us, right?

Good luck and I hope you don't require any actual help in the future because I don't think too many people here are going to want to give it. Feel free to have the last word, I'm out of this thread now.

 

[Endorya]

LOL, if you're not trolling, you're starting to do a really good impression of it.

The information you seek is widely available in any number of reference publications around the web. You didn't need to talk to anyone to get opinions.

99% of people who come through this place and talk to exactly the same people form the exact opposite impression of the place to what you've stated, but it must be us, right?

Good luck and I hope you don't require any actual help in the future because I don't think too many people here are going to want to give it. Feel free to have the last word, I'm out of this thread now.

And I second that. Nothing personal Mo Facta, but you do seem to be acting close to the creature who lingers in caves and that is part of a fantasy world in a medieval era. I'm only judging you from your behavior in this very thread...

Anyway, so 24bit gives you more floor instead of headroom? Confused now... I guess we can't simply trust all there is written on the internet (surprise!).

 

[Farview]

No, there is nothing wrong with 16 bit recording. However, cheap 24 bit converters tend to sound better than cheap 16 bit converters. That would be a factor with the portastudio.

The other thing that the all in one units that I've dealt with have in common is a fixed point mix buss. It is very easy ti run out of digital headroom when mixing with one of those things and turning down the master fader doesn't help. That and the cheap preamps are the major downfalls of those units, the 16 bit thing isn't anywhere near as big a problem.

 

[grimtraveller]

Nothing personal Armistice, but you do seem to be acting close to the creature who lingers in caves and that is part of a fantasy world in a medieval era.

What does that actually mean ?

Relax bro. Don't get your knickers in a knot over this. I'm not trying to slate anyone. I'm just sayin'...it's a little odd to record on a portastudio when, in my opinion, it's so much less of a hassle to do it on a computer.

Blimey Mo, thanks for going public with the secret I told you about the state of my knickers !


Actually, I was only answering your question. I'll often point that out {preference and choice} when people query with amazement someone else's choices. I put the there at the end precisely to show that like the Hollies once sang, "ain't heavy.....my brother". For the record, I generally enjoy your posts, I like the stances you take and I find them really informative with plenty of lingering food for thought. There are lots of things I wouldn't do recording wise {I wouldn't go back to cassette portastudios, for example} but I also recognize that there are many ways to skin this particular cat.

 

[Endorya]

What does that actually mean ?

The description of a troll. But troll is such a strong word... I thought on describing it instead.

 

[Mo Facta]

What does that actually mean ?

Blimey Mo, thanks for going public with the secret I told you about the state of my knickers !


Actually, I was only answering your question. I'll often point that out {preference and choice} when people query with amazement someone else's choices. I put the there at the end precisely to show that like the Hollies once sang, "ain't heavy.....my brother". For the record, I generally enjoy your posts, I like the stances you take and I find them really informative with plenty of lingering food for thought. There are lots of things I wouldn't do recording wise {I wouldn't go back to cassette portastudios, for example} but I also recognize that there are many ways to skin this particular cat.

Heheh, you know I would never intentionally expose the state of your knickers if it wasn't relevant to the topic.

All good!

Cheers

 

[RAMI]

The description of a troll. But troll is such a strong word... I thought on describing it instead.

But you addressed it to Armistice. You sure that's who you were talking to?

 

[grimtraveller]

Heheh, you know I would never intentionally expose the state of your knickers if it wasn't relevant to the topic.

 

[Armistice]

But you addressed it to Armistice. You sure that's who you were talking to?

Yeah, hello?

For the record, it weren't me who negged the OP. Oh wait, I wasn't coming back to this thread....

*scurries off back under a nearby rock*

 

[Endorya]

Oh my bad! I copy pasted the wrong name! I meant Mo Facta (Fatal Error!). My humble apologies Armistice.
I've fixed it. But now the discussion is out of sync.

 

[mixsit]

Human Nature and all being what is is, this here has been an example of how things can go when we stray 'off question.