Is a Tascam M-2516 +4???

[poopchute]

Cjacek, So if I use some of those may the 81 mk II or something with a M320 mixer along with the JH016 reel to reel, would that be an ok workaround or is that kinda like rigging it. I dont want to add those to the signal if they are gonna cause me alot of trouble...
Like Ive said I think I can swing the JH-16 but I cant see shelling out another 5000 for a Toft ATB mixer or something...tho one of those would be sweet...

 

[The Ghost of FM]

(correct me if Im wrong) I will need a +4 mixer with at least 16 ins/outs. Since I know next to nothing about what is out there for mixers I have to rely on you guys throwing me ideas...Honestly the M-520 looks great. Its even a large format mixer that looks professional. Thing is that Ill probably never use the mixer in any other setup besides with the MCI or other large Reel to reel. Its too bad that its not a +4...

No, you won't need 16 outs unless you're planning on tracking all 16 channels on the recorder in one pass. Otherwise you can get by with a 4 or 8 buss mixer if you're only ever needing to record 4 or 8 tracks, (or less), at any one time. You can accomplish that by using a balanced patch bay where-by you can feed the bay with the 4 or 8 buss outs from the mixer and then via patch bay short jumper cords, you can then direct any of the mixer's buss outs to any of the RTR's 16 inputs.

You will though need 16 balanced inputs on the mixer for tracking and mix down and the 300 or 500 series boards from TASCAM can accomplish that.

More to the point though, it would seem like you have only very rudimentary knowledge of the whole recording signal chain and some even more tribal like beliefs about only owning and using a 2" machine. You may well end up learning an extremely expensive lesson that you don't really need a 2" machine as much as you seem to believe that only with one, you can achieve true recording nirvana. In reality, that ethereal state can be obtained with lesser gear, experienced engineering and music material and performances that are of solid substance in an artistic sense.

One of the biggest falasies that we all get caught up in is that if we only had the same paint and paint brushes that Rembrandt had, we would almost assuredly paint the same masterpieces that he did. And that is the most perverse and evil menace that plagues the entire recording world and many other worlds of different disciplines.

Know your art, know your engineering and the real miracles will commence after that only.

Cheers!

 

[poopchute]

Ghost thanks for that info. That helps explain alot. Your right I have never got the whole sending channels thru busses and summing them and grouping drum tracks for mixing. Im still of the belief that if you use say a 16 track machine to record then you should have a 16 channel mixer and an input and output for each track on the machine plus XLR's for mic inputs on all 16 tracks.
As for learning an expensive lesson...I look at it this way. Keep in mind that Im not just trying to throw huge amounts of money at "Pro Quality" equipment so I will automatically sound like Im working out of Abbey Road. But I see my friends (in their late 20's-30's) buying $5000.00 Bass boats, another friend is buying a 3000.00 Martin guitar... Stuff like that, so I think heck I dont like to fish that much and if I have a little money to spend I want to get a professional reel-2-reel and a mixer to go along with that.
The problem is that even tho I am prepared to drop 3500 on a JH-16 or something similar I cant see spending another 3500-5000 for a mixer. Heck if people around here think a $100-$150 Tascam M-30 is alright for a TSR-8 then why cant a M300 series or M500 Series or some other Tascam Vintage (old) series mixer be ok for a 2" 16 track beast?
Does that make any sense?

 

[The Ghost of FM]

I am prepared to drop 3500 on a JH-16 or something similar I cant see spending another 3500-5000 for a mixer.

There would seem to be a mental disconnect within that statement that begs attention. Let's look at it this way; If you were into buying fancy fishing boats for thousands of dollars, like your friends, would you also refuse to buy the required motor, fishing gear and knowledge of how to swim in case your boat springs a leak?

The point of that funny little example is that if you can't see the merit of fully professional, working studio class mixers, all the cabling and most importantly, the engineering knowhow to use them, why on earth are you so fixated on the silly 400 pound boat anchor of a recorder?

If it were me and my money, I think I would just buy a real 400 pound boat anchor, have it bronzed, so it would look real pretty and then proudly display it attached to an old, beaten down 12 ft wooden row boat out in my front yard so all my friends and neighbors could see it and marvel at its professional appearance and mammoth proportions!

And, I promise to not pester you any further.

Cheers!

 

[poopchute]

There would seem to be a mental disconnect within that statement that begs attention. Let's look at it this way; If you were into buying fancy fishing boats for thousands of dollars, like your friends, would you also refuse to buy the required motor, fishing gear and knowledge of how to swim in case your boat springs a leak?

The point of that funny little example is that if you can't see the merit of fully professional, working studio class mixers, all the cabling and most importantly, the engineering knowhow to use them, why on earth are you so fixated on the silly 400 pound boat anchor of a recorder?

If it were me and my money, I think I would just buy a real 400 pound boat anchor, have it bronzed, so it would look real pretty and then proudly display it attached to an old, beaten down 12 ft wooden row boat out in my front yard so all my friends and neighbors could see it and marvel at its professional appearance and mammoth proportions!

And, I promise to not pester you any further.

Cheers!

Not Cool...

 

[The Ghost of FM]

Not Cool...

I apologize.

If you want to own a 2", 16 track deck, it's your free choice to do so.

Good luck with your project.

Cheers!

 

[cjacek]

While I see the point that Jeff [Ghost] is trying to make and a good one at that, I can also appreciate poop's desire to get a 2" deck. I think each of us must travel toward that which, we believe, brings us happiness and if that means a boat, expensive guitar or 400lb 16 track then so be it.

Sure one can get by and potentially make a hit record with a digital keyboard or a typical upright piano but does it mean it's wrong to want a Steinway grand or maybe a Bösendorfer? That I wish to take a dip in a swimming pool but my mom tells me to get into a tub and that it's "the same thing", doesn't mean she's wrong. It's just perspective and one's reality.

I think it's about getting the full experience from something which you love and if that means restoring cars or owning expensive tape deck then so be it. I know that I can put together an inexpensive digital studio and make good sound out of it but that not fun for me. The experience of owning a truly huge tape machine, overshadows anything else, at least in the fun factor.

Hey, we all know about the romance associated with those recorder beasts. Looks like poop is in love. Who's gonna stand between that?

At the same time, I too don't want someone to buy an expensive 2" deck for all the wrong reasons, ones Jeff spoke of.

 

[lo.fi.love]

Just throwing this out there - if you want to sell your TSR-8, you should sell it to me

 

[cjacek]

Cjacek, So if I use some of those may the 81 mk II or something with a M320 mixer along with the JH016 reel to reel, would that be an ok workaround or is that kinda like rigging it. I dont want to add those to the signal if they are gonna cause me alot of trouble...
Like Ive said I think I can swing the JH-16 but I cant see shelling out another 5000 for a Toft ATB mixer or something...tho one of those would be sweet...

I really can't speak to any degree of certainty to the above but I don't think you'll cause "a lot of trouble". These "workarounds" are there for a purpose and probably work well too. Just do your research including asking those who actually use those boxes. I've read good things about the Ebtech brand. Others may be good too. Again, I can't speak from a personal use perspective.

 

[poopchute]

I want to thank everyone for their views and opinions. But...
Im starting to think that ghost has a point. It does seem like there is alot to know and when I hear other people talking about it or explaining things I often feel like a little 3 year old who can hear his parents spelling out words but cant figure out what they are saying. Im starting to think that since I dont know everything about mixers and "Pro" equipment that Ill probably never know. I just have to face it...If I dont know how to operate a mixer now Im never gonna know how. So its time for me to stop dreaming...stop thinking that I could learn. I mean that expensive gear is expensive for a reason. To keep people like me from buying it. I dont even know what Id do with all the extra headroom that I would have from doubling the tape width. Im starting to think that putting a mixer that people in here all love and swear by (M320,M500 series) or anything similar would probably be like Im just using a 1/2" 8 track anyways... And I can do that for what Ive already invested. So I should probably thank Ghost the Most for the dose of reality. Heck I should probably send him like half of the 3500 bucks I was gonna waste. Its probably the rest of you enablers I should be a little miffed at. Cause its you guys who chose to play along with me and encourage me to think it might be cool to have a really nice R2R.
Thanks,
Im probably gonna make up a list of all my equipment and have a fire sale. So just give me a little time to get it all organized and Ill make a new post in the for sale forum... Heck I probably wont even be able to do that right either...

 

[cjacek]

poop, either you're joking or yer nuts.
Seriously, I'm not trying to insult you but I don't really get what you're saying and why...

 

[The Ghost of FM]

I want to thank everyone for their views and opinions. But...
Im starting to think that ghost has a point. It does seem like there is alot to know and when I hear other people talking about it or explaining things I often feel like a little 3 year old who can hear his parents spelling out words but cant figure out what they are saying. Im starting to think that since I dont know everything about mixers and "Pro" equipment that Ill probably never know. I just have to face it...If I dont know how to operate a mixer now Im never gonna know how. So its time for me to stop dreaming...stop thinking that I could learn. I mean that expensive gear is expensive for a reason. To keep people like me from buying it. I dont even know what Id do with all the extra headroom that I would have from doubling the tape width. Im starting to think that putting a mixer that people in here all love and swear by (M320,M500 series) or anything similar would probably be like Im just using a 1/2" 8 track anyways... And I can do that for what Ive already invested. So I should probably thank Ghost the Most for the dose of reality. Heck I should probably send him like half of the 3500 bucks I was gonna waste. Its probably the rest of you enablers I should be a little miffed at. Cause its you guys who chose to play along with me and encourage me to think it might be cool to have a really nice R2R.
Thanks,
Im probably gonna make up a list of all my equipment and have a fire sale. So just give me a little time to get it all organized and Ill make a new post in the for sale forum... Heck I probably wont even be able to do that right either...

Poop,

Please, please, please listen to me for a minute.

It was not my intension to throw you off of the path you were on as it now seems like that's what I foolishly did.

The only real point I was trying to make was that it's cool to have cool tool and even cooler to know what to do with them. As for the learning curve or learning cycle, there is no deadline or magical cut off date of when you can stop learning about recording. For pretty much all of us, the learning never really stops and your recording chain can be a simple or as complex as whatever YOU are comfortable with. We all do this for our own pleasure, right! Not because someone is forcing us to do it! This is a hobby for most of us and like you said, your buddies buy fishing boats and other stuff because that's what they're into!

So if you really have your heart set on owning a 2", 16 track and can afford it, hell fucking yeah, buy the damn thing and enjoy your hobby and enjoy your life, if that's what you want to do!

I'm 47 now, myself and ever since the age of about 18 or 19, I had a dream of owning a 16 track, 1" machine. When that dream first popped into my brain, they sold for close to 20 grand and I never even thought about what kind of mixer I would need for it or all the other stuff to make a viable project studio. I only knew that I wanted that damn bitch and I was going to scrimp and save and one day own it! (does this sound familiar to anyone here... ). Anyway, after many years of working my way through cassette decks, smaller 4 tracks and a couple of 8 track RTR's, I one day came across an ad in a local Buy&Sell newspaper...before the days of ebay, and I saw one for sale for 4500 bucks and thought wow! My dream boat finally came into port and at 75% off of what I knew these suckers went for new so I called up the seller, went over and checked it out. It was really a well worn machine, A ton of mileage on it and plenty of battle scars from being used in a professional working studio for a good 6 or 7 years. It needed work and a lot of TLC to restore it and made the seller and offer of 3500 and he grudgingly accepted it!

I was on cloud 9 for a hell of a long time after I got it and all along the way, I was slowly building up my engineering skills and my maintenance skills, learning how to do the simpler repairs and using an experienced service tech for the more complex ones. At the time, I had my best friend and band mate to record with and we slowly got the hang of tracking with it and as time went on, we got more experienced and our recording progressively got better and better. The point of all this is that it was an evolving process up a very long and steady trek that lasted close to 25 years before the band broke up and I stopped recording music about 3 years ago.

What you need to take away from my little story here is that no one should be able to deny you of your dreams and if this is YOUR dream, go for it, dude! We only get one life.

Cheers!

 

[sweetbeats]

'chute...

Sorry about your heavy heart...

Listen, I truly think everything everybody has said has had merit and value, and I also think everybody wants the best for what's best for you...truly.

So take it ALL in and then let it steep for a bit and go from there.

My 2p? I got gear that was over my head, and it was 1/2 inch 8 track stuff. I spent A LOT of time learning-learning-learning and have dropped probably another 500 bucks or more on test equipment and tools...many, many people here and in other venues have given of their time and talent to help and teach. I too dreamed of having a wide format machine.

For me 2 inch is just too big. Forget the crazy price of 2 inch tape and even used at that...you checked out the price of a 2 inch alignment tape lately??? WOW!

So for me that left 1/2 inch 4 track or 1 inch 8 track and you probably know I recently picked up an ampex 440-8. It was an impulse buy, eBay but pretty local to me. The price was right (under 600) but here's the catch:

If you don't really know the deck you're going to miss important details on pre-inspection...that's me. I wanted it. I bought it. A. parts are really hard to come by. B. parts can be really expensive. I've already spent quite a bit more in parts as I did for the deck. Do I regret it? Mostly no, but I was not sart about it and its going to take every bit of experience I've had with my 48 and 58 to get it going.

Just be smart about what you end up doing, and if there is some way you can get some first hand experience with one that might be good...just give you perspective, y'know? You can do it, it just takes time, money and patience...you know that already.

 

[poopchute]

Sweetbeats...
yeah I was just getting some frusteration off my chest and I chose sarcasim to do it. Im not going to sell everything...
As to the few things you mention about parts and availability and stuff. One of the nice things about buying from Blevins (if I end up doing that) is apparently he or one of his guys will personally deliver it to me and help with set up. I dont know how much they will actually help in set up but thats nice anyways...Apparently the delivery is included in that 3500 price.
The other nice thing is (according to blevins) that the MCI machines he says he has plenty of spare parts and if i went with a Studer or something he says nobody knows how to work on them except Studer techs... and the parts are really hard to come by and extra expensive...
Another nice thing about Blevins is that for a small sum of 200 per year I guess i either get unlimited phone help or I dont actually remember if that might include them coming to me to fix...tho I dount it. At least I wont be left hanging with a boat anchor with none to help...
Yep the alignment tapes are something like 600 bucks. But if Im am truly going to go this route Id be foolish not to get one...
Im hoping I can talk Blevins into some kind of package like Cjacek mentioned...some kind of young startup studio deal where I can get something thrown in or get some price knocked off the alignment tape...
Also I am not just going to go out and buy this next week or anything. But I will have it or something similar by the middle to end of this summer...
So I still have lots of time to think and ask stupid questions here...
I do realize that most people on here dont own a wide format machine and maybe they think Im trying to be better than them or rub it in their face that Im going to buy one. I hope I dont come across in that way. You guys are my brothers and most of you have way more experience than I do. But it has always been a dream and I dont know where else to ask these kind of questions...

 

[sweetbeats]

'chute...

Okay. I'm with ya.

Well, keep us posted. It is definitely worth something to have it delivered and have some ongoing vendor support.

Also, I missed that you were looking at the MCI products...I think you are right that there is likely a greater availability of parts.

Well, keep us posted!

Oh, and the whole mixer thing...hm...I know I couldn't swing both at the same time cost-wise...especially not something with 16/16 +4 balanced I/O...you're not saying you can either IIRC...I'd probably use something with at least 8 balanced +4 outs and at least 16 mic pre's as long as they had attenuators on them so you could use them as balanced line-level returns. Its not ideal since you are taking the line signal through mic pre circuitry, but it works...a number of the Tascam mixers were setup that way...M-500 boards...have to look at the others but it was pretty standard convention there for awhile. If you did that you could build a 16-channel normalling XLR patchbay...kind of a PITA but you'd have the atr returns normalled to the mixer and then setup break jacks to plug your mics or mic snake into.

Or get a couple MX-80's...still have the downside of taking the line level signal through an attenuated mic pre but it'll take you from balanced line to unbalanced -10dBV...might could get a couple for 100 to 150...might actually be cheaper than building a 16 x 16 balanced patchbay and would allow you to keep your tape returns connected to tape ins on the mixer and use the mixer pre's as pre's. The LA-40/80/81 route would be the ideal in the case of the Tascam mixers we've been discussing, but not cheap. I did see 3 LA-40's got for something like 125 on eBay awhile back, but that was a steal...usually around 100 each and you'd need 4, and worse yet the LA-80/81 you'd need two each at 250~300 each. But so it goes it seems when you step into this arena. Fortunately for me the Ampex 440 electronics will do +4 or +8 unbalanced in and out or balanced with mods...not sure how mine are setup yet...my M-___ mixer is all unbalanced except for a set of balanced outs for the STEREO buss, but all the PGB BUSS outs are -10 dBV or +4dBu, so I'm set for 8-track mixing...

 

[RRuskin]

'chute...

Okay. I'm with ya.

Well, keep us posted. It is definitely worth something to have it delivered and have some ongoing vendor support.

Also, I missed that you were looking at the MCI products...I think you are right that there is likely a greater availability of parts.

Well, keep us posted!

Oh, and the whole mixer thing...hm...I know I couldn't swing both at the same time cost-wise...especially not something with 16/16 +4 balanced I/O...you're not saying you can either IIRC...I'd probably use something with at least 8 balanced +4 outs and at least 16 mic pre's as long as they had attenuators on them so you could use them as balanced line-level returns. Its not ideal since you are taking the line signal through mic pre circuitry, but it works...a number of the Tascam mixers were setup that way...M-500 boards...have to look at the others but it was pretty standard convention there for awhile. If you did that you could build a 16-channel normalling XLR patchbay...kind of a PITA but you'd have the atr returns normalled to the mixer and then setup break jacks to plug your mics or mic snake into.

This is possible but not terribly practical. Think about it. During tracking, you’d need to change your fader settings every time you needed to play anything back. Then change again when you needed your mic input. Consoles have dedicated tape monitor/mixing paths so you can avoid this kind of hassle.

Or get a couple MX-80's...still have the downside of taking the line level signal through an attenuated mic pre but it'll take you from balanced line to unbalanced -10dBV...might could get a couple for 100 to 150...might actually be cheaper than building a 16 x 16 balanced patchbay and would allow you to keep your tape returns connected to tape ins on the mixer and use the mixer pre's as pre's. The LA-40/80/81 route would be the ideal in the case of the Tascam mixers we've been discussing, but not cheap. I did see 3 LA-40's got for something like 125 on eBay awhile back, but that was a steal...usually around 100 each and you'd need 4, and worse yet the LA-80/81 you'd need two each at 250~300 each. But so it goes it seems when you step into this arena. Fortunately for me the Ampex 440 electronics will do +4 or +8 unbalanced in and out or balanced with mods...not sure how mine are setup yet...my M-___ mixer is all unbalanced except for a set of balanced outs for the STEREO buss, but all the PGB BUSS outs are -10 dBV or +4dBu, so I'm set for 8-track mixing...

Using an MX-80 is just a slightly more elegant kludge than using a board’s mic pre’s. It works but it doesn’t do anything good for the signal. Plus I doubt they are that much cheaper than the more appropriate line matching amps.

Balanced or unbalanced, your Ampex puts out a much higher signal than a –10 tape return wants to see. You will either need to run the output level way down or use the step-down portion of a bump box to accommodate so as not to run the board out of headroom. You are going to have to play the machine back through the board at some point, are you not?

 

[Dr ZEE]

DIY It - cheap : LINK HERE

after minus 3.5 gran you may feel 'cheap'
***********

btw, speaking of "fallacies" , Rembrandt was boring, and so was 100 years later Mozart.
They still are.

 

[cjacek]

Damn, that's a pretty good link there, Doc.

As far as the Blevins deal, I'd say go for it as it looks like a good deal, with delivery included, setup etc.... That's not a bad deal at all, on a machine which probably cost closer to $100K in today's money, when originally made. Still, indeed, do ask for a better deal. Never hurts to do that.

I also think, and people might laugh but, at least for now, there's really nothing wrong with starting out with a semi-pro board and that 2" 16 track deck. Let's go nuts and even pair up your M30 Tascam (with a line converter) with that MCI. While not ideal and may not squeeze out all the performance out of that 2" deck, it will register an improved sound over your TSR-8, for instance. Down the line, as I mentioned to poop, he should look at a deal on a more "pro" board, one designed to be used with a wide track deck, to realize its full potential.

Then again, you're not getting a 2" for its sonic qualities alone but also for the experience factor, including ease of access, serviceability and, the often overlooked, "they're dirt cheap nowadays" and, of course, never needing to upgrade again, ever.

I personally think it's a noble quest to setup a large capacity studio of this sort, at least over time.

 

[poopchute]

Another thing I havent considered is how Im going to get all 16 tracks into my digi-002 for editing? I know people are going to say Im going to spend all that money on a wide format machine and then dump it to digital?!?
But Even when I upgrade I dont think I can live without digital editing? The main problems Im seeing is that the digi-002 only has 8 1/4 inputs in the back. I believe there are others like lightpipe and something else which Ive never used ( I got in a verbal fight over this topic in the computer forum here) . So Im wondering if there is a 16 in/out M-audio setup or something I can use to just get the audio into the computer? I dont want something totally cheap so it degrades the analog signal too much but man Id hate to get everything set up and go...Man there arent enough inputs in the back???

 

[themaddog]

If you don't need to digitally edit each and every track, you might be able to just use a sync box like a JL Cooper. Synced up to your computer, you could put in 8 tracks at a time (although you'll only have 15 tracks on your 16 track machine, because you'll lose a track due to the SMTPE track). When it's synced, you could dump just a few tracks at a time to digital, and it'll still always be in sync. Another benefit of syncing is if you run out of tracks on your tape machine, you can still use the computer to record in conjunction with the tape machine.

Alternatively, a couple of M-Audio Delta 1010's linked together could be used for 16 inputs into your computer, although I don't have any experience in this arena.

I have synced tape machines with my computer and achieved some great results.

-MD