Pirate Software

Dingo · Apr 16, 2000

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>sonusman wrote:
You know, that is the reason that I like the idea of pirated software. Often, these programs are so badly written out of the box. I don't want to go spending $300+ dollars on software that doesn't work. But how would I know unless I tried a "illegal" copy of it. Often, this is how I know what to buy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's where demos come in. Why do you need pirated software when you can download demos for most of the useful applications around.

I recently wanted to buy notation software. I downloaded demos of around 15 different notation programs, spent a couple of days seriously trying them all out, then bought one, and I'm still very happy with my choice.

This doesn't justify piracy.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Definately, the registered version is the better way to go just for tech support.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For me it's much more than the tech support - it's the morality of the situation. I don't consider myself a thief, and I doubt you do either. But if you use pirated software, that's what you are, plain and simple. You are ripping off someone who has worked hard to produce that software.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>One of the nifty features the software developers can do to "protect" their software is to default obscure settings that more or less force you to call tech support to even know that it is making a difference in how the software performs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Possible, but unlikely I would think. I work in the software development industry, and this is not a ploy we use nor any other companies I know of (and I have friends in many major Seattle-based software companies).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Anyway, a lot of discussion has gone into this whole "protection" thing. Steirberg applies some pretty heavy duty protection. A shame since they make such nice stuff.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The shame is that they feel the need to do this. If people in the music industry didn't so readily use pirated software, Steinberg probably wouldn't see the need to do this.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>But on the other hand, I have heard so many bad things about Cubase that I am afraid to even go their because I can't "legally" try out the program to see just how bad of a mess it is out of the box.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So do what I did and try the demo - you can download it from their website.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Cakewalk on the other hand only has a silly s/n protection.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, they must just be more trusting.

That's all we use, too, though we don't consider it a form of copy protection. Anything is crackable, so why spend a lot of time and money in copy protection schemes that someone will just break anyway.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Easy enough. I can then try it out and see if the features are adequate for what I want to do...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or just download the demo from their website.

Again, none of this justifies software piracy. When you take away all the euphemisms, software pirates are simply common ciminals, as are those that use software without paying the owners.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Believe it or not, a lot of software companies have gained "free" help improving their software from the "bandits" that use unregistered versions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If so, good on 'em. But it doesn't justify the piracy.

I'm sure if you asked those same software companies whether they'd prefer to have the software pirates so they could use them for free R&D, or not have them at all, they'd choose the latter option.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>So, maybe go a little easy on some of those hackers. A lot of them become very helpful to the developers, and certainly they provide a way of protecting consumers from developers that put products on the market before they are ready. It happens far too often.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, please, give us a break. I'm sorry, but the end doesn't justify the means. It all sounds very nice and altruistic, but the fact is they're not protecting anyone from anything. All they're doing is pushing up software prices for those of us who DO do the honest thing and purchase the software we use.

If you want to try before you buy, get legal demos of the software from the manufacturer. If the manufacturer doesn't have a demo available online, contact them. If they don't have a demo available at all, screw them by not buying their product, not by promoting software piracy as a legitimate alternative.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Anyway, some guy trying to make a few bucks off of the cracked version is out of the "spirit" of hackers. Mostly, these code breakers will just share the stuff for free with those they trust. They didn't crack it to make money, they cracked to see if they could, and possibly to see if it is worth a darn.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is true. That doesn't make it any more OK. Once they crack it, and share it with their friends, then it's out there and available and ready for the unscrupulous to put it on a CD and sell for money. Who is at fault here? That's easy...

1. The person who cracked it in the first place. If they just kept it to themselves, I've got no problems (as long as they paid for it, if they actually use it). Once they start giving it to people, I've got problems.

2. The person who picked it up and put it on a CD to make money. This is definitely the biggest schmuck of the bunch, but they wouldn't have the stuff to put on the CD if the hackers weren't making it readily available.

3. The person who uses the cracked software. If they get it for free from somewhere and use it, they're just petty thieves. If they pay for a CD of the stuff, they're also losers ;-)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Anyway, just my thoughts.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And, don't get me wrong, you're entirely welcome to your thoughts. But I think our culture is drifting (or has already drifted) dangerously close to the point where software piracy starts getting recognized as something that's OK, rather than what it is - theft, pure and simple.

--Dingo

one · Apr 17, 2000

Can i just add a couple of quick points to this discussion

The reason CUBASE uses a "sentinal" (dongle) is beacuse us Euro's don't "mind" using them! People in the USA\CA hate it, i think there might even be a legal issue in selling software in the USA\CA with a dongle.

That why cakewalk\microsoft products etc.. all use a crappy serial which can be found in 0.02 seconds on the internet

..but it hasn't done microsoft much harm has it? some ppl in the software industry say it was "reverse marketing" - which i find very intresting

Cubase does have good protection, i think it has over 3,000 checksum checks within the code..each one needs to be found or the program will crash.

The latest crack is 100% - all protection has been removed - now you can try before you buy!

Thats what i did - i didn't want to spend £300 on software and find my soundcard didn't like it

The essence is try before you buy.

cheers

ametth · Apr 17, 2000

Bob Lentini of Innovative Quality Software, maker of the SAW line of multi-track software, is philosophical on the subject: "We don't use copy protection on any of our current products. It has been my experience that in the long run the pirates do not cause as many lost sales as you might expect. Those of the pirate mentality would never have purchased the product anyway if they could not steal it. Many of our customers came to us after running a pirated version for a short time, and then decided that they could not live without the product and wanted to register for access to support and free downloads and other product discounts. Others have purchased after seeing a pirated version running in some other location...free advertising."

Tom Johnson from Coda (Finale) feels similarly: "We have tried a few forms of protection over the years. Currently we have a system that places the moral burden on the software owner. When Finale is loaded onto a hard drive from its CD, it locks to that hard drive. This is invisible to the user but prevents copying the software off the hard drive. However, there is nothing stopping the software owner from giving his or her CD to another individual thereby giving them permission to copy the CD."

SEK'D America (publisher of Samplitude) uses an uncopyable key disk, but it also accepts that piracy exists despite its best efforts. According to Michael Seltzer, "Cracked versions of almost all software exist on the Internet. This seems to be an unstoppable fact of life. Personally, I have no problem registering anyone who calls our office because I feel that in this new world (Internet) the concept of 'marketing through piracy' and 'free pre-release' and 'shareware' versions are appropriate and rather effective. Samplitude has always been a very deep program with many layers of functionality. An owners manual and the support of our Tech team is almost required to learn Samplitude's ocean of features and methods of working. For SEK'D, word of mouth is by far how most people discover Samplitude, and that is much more important to us than big hyped-up print ads. Access to trial and cracked versions, or a friend's version, will often create another Samplitude evangelist, spreading the good word about our products!"

the above text can be found in this atricle: http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/files/739DF48C566E1D33862567DE001BE355

Cakey2 · Apr 17, 2000

Hmmm. Well, Mr Dingo, as a representative of a software company, how much of the selling price of a piece of software does it cost to manufacture? I know that I can knock up a CD for less than 2.50, and yet the cheapest commercial software (and this is something that's already sold loadsa copies) is £15. If I want to buy a piece of audio software, I could easily go out and spend upwards of £350 on a CD, a paper pamphlet and a cardboard box. I'm not advocating illegal software reproducing, just questioning that software manufacturers are out to do the 'right thing'. Microsoft - case in point.

It's just a question of market forces - if it is possible to get something illegal for 100 times less than something legit (and it obviously is), then some people with no money and lots of potential ( even if they are normally law aniding citizens) may go for the cheaper option.

As for demos, there is no way (as has already been written on this thread) that you can get free demos which are not crippled in some way (except the ones mentioned above (edited here!)) - if they weren't they would be free copies of the software. Time limitation may work (sometimes), but these are rare for top-end software because they are easily cracked.

As for calling people who use pirated (hate that term, always remind me of buccaneers and stuff) software thieves, then, no matter what your courts say, I think you are incorrect. Here piracy is it's own crime, personally I'd say it's closer to receiving (as in receiving stolen goods). I'd simply call those who use copies 'poor'

Well, that my shilling'sworth.

Bognor matt

[This message has been edited by Cakey2 (edited 04-17-2000).]

Dingo · Apr 17, 2000

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Eurythmic:
Anyway, returning to the point - I am a firm believer in "trying before I buy" as well. Though these companies SHOULD be paid for their work, dropping hundreds on a piece of software is a big deal for me. I want plenty of time to work with a non-crippled version first. Often, demos provide little to no information about software's actual quality.

Is that wrong? I don't think so. I think it's far better to pirate something, buy it legally a while later, and own a piece of software that I am proud of and will recommend to others, than to buy it right away and discover that I have wasted my money.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course it's wrong. No matter *how* you attempt to justify it, software piracy is still theft.

I'm all for try before you buy also, but I don't use pirated software. I find it hard to believe "demos provide little to no information about software's actual quality", when a demo is, in fact, exactly the same software as you buy, except with a few features disabled.

I never buy software without trying it first, and doing a lot of research. Somehow, for all these years, I've been able to do that without using pirated software.

What other thing is there that you consider it OK to steal it to "try before you buy"? Why should software be any different?

--Dingo

gaffa · Apr 17, 2000

Yeah, Dingo, gotta agree with you there.

There's legal, and THEN there's ethical. Seems to me that a lot of people (not necessarily on this board, but in general) seem to think that once something is legal, it is ethical as well. Not strictly true.

It costs a lot of money to write software - Cakey2, it may cost $2.50 to duplicate the software, but there may be 30 man-years worth of effort in writing that software. I write softweare for a living (although not commercial stuff), and I can appreciate the effort that goes into writing software.

Like Dingo said - get the demo. If no demo exists, or the company won't give you one, don't even bother considering the product. Nothing like market forces to change the minds of companies.

Piracy is a big issue, but it's also a little issue. It's big cos it's all pervasive, because the world runs on computers, because software IS copyable with no loss in quality, and because billions of dollars are lost each year in revenue.

It's also a little issue, because it does not consist of one big crime or violation, but lots and lots and lots of little crimes. Most specialist software houses can survive in this envirnoment cos they produce software that is just that - specialist. People who use this software will buy it. The big companies survive cos they are big, and cos the corporate world tends to pay enough to keep them going.

Just think, somewhere between 30% and 40% of the purchase price of a piece of software is added to offset the cost of piracy. Suddenly something that would have sold for $600 is closer to $800.

Also remember that as well as not getting support and docs when you use a pirated copy, the software company also has less money for R&D and for improving the product.

Hands up how many of you actually own a legal version of Microsoft Office?

- gaffa

Dingo · Apr 17, 2000

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Gaffa writes:
Yeah, Dingo, gotta agree with you there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Phew - I'm glad I'm not as alone as I feel here ;-)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I write software for a living (although not commercial stuff), and I can appreciate the effort that goes into writing software.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I write software for a living also - commercial stuff (as you can probably tell from my response to this issue).

I ask everyone to consider this... What if it was YOUR software, that YOU'D spent years of YOUR life developing, that other people started giving away, or selling (without you getting anything)? How'd you feel? Would you be so ready with the weak justifications for software piracy then?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Also remember that as well as not getting support and docs when you use a pirated copy, the software company also has less money for R&D and for improving the product.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, and believe me both the product and the company suffers as a result.

Free software is great, if that's what the developers wants to do then I'm all for it. I use lots of free software - there's lots of wonderful free software out there, and I'm sure there always will be. But I think it's always going to be the exception rather than the rule. And if the software developer doesn't want you to use their software for free, then you have absolutely no right to be doing that.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Hands up how many of you actually own a legal version of Microsoft Office?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ME! Well, OK, that's not quite true. I use it through my employer's license with Microsoft (that is, I don't own it, my employer does).

--Dingo

Dingo · Apr 17, 2000

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by one:
The essence is try before you buy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, so download the demo.

--Dingo

Dingo · Apr 17, 2000

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cakey2:
Hmmm. Well, Mr Dingo, as a representative of a software company, how much of the selling price of a piece of software does it cost to manufacture?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You seriously think manufacturing costs are all that goes into developing software?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I know that I can knock up a CD for less than 2.50, and yet the cheapest commercial software (and this is something that's already sold loadsa copies) is £15. If I want to buy a piece of audio software, I could easily go out and spend upwards of £350 on a CD, a paper pamphlet and a cardboard box.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're not paying for the CD et al, you're paying for the right to use the software that's on that CD. *BIG* difference.

Let's try a few figures, shall we?

Let's consider an arbitrary program that costs, say, $US500. Let's say software company x sells 2000 of that product per year (they probably sell more, but most of those will be upgrades for which they get much less money, so we're averaging things out).

Cost of goods adds up to something like this:

CD pressing: $1.00
Manual: $50.00 (a realistic figure for a decent manual, which much software still does actually ship with)
Licenses: $10.00 (optimistically)
Packaging and shipping: $20.00 (just say)
Total: $81.00

Let's forget the cost of the CD and round it out at $80. So, the company is making $420 profit per item. Multiply that by 2000 and you get $840,000 per year.

Now, what are the yearly costs involved in developing that product? Let's look at salaries involved in a fairly modest product:

Let's say 5 software engineers at $50,000 each - that's $250,000 (really, a serious product would have more software engineers and pay them a lot more).

Let's say 3 QA engineers at $40,000 each - that's $120,000.

Let's say 3 tech support engineers at $40,000 each - another $120,000.

Now we need some sales and marketing to actually sell this product. We're only a small company, so we only have 1 person doing sales and marketing on this product. We'll pay them $80,000.

There's also another couple of hundred thousand in management (we'll say this company does more than one product, and management is somewhat shared between products).

So, that totals out to $770,000. We've not included all the other expenses of running a business - a office location, equipment, day to day expenses, marketing expenses etc etc.

Software development is *NOT* a lucrative market to be in, unless you are one of the very top few in a very large market, such as operating system and office type apps. You'll find that niche market products like audio software run on a very fine margin.

But don't take my word for it - if a company is publically traded, it's financial details will all be avilable for you to see for yourself. Why not go and check it out? I promise you the Cakewalks and the Steinbergs and the Emagics of this world are not making a huge amount of profit.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I'm not advocating illegal software reproducing, just questioning that software manufacturers are out to do the 'right thing'. Microsoft - case in point.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Microsoft is a pretty atypical example of a software company.

But any software company not going the right thing still doesn't justify stealing their products.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It's just a question of market forces - if it is possible to get something illegal for 100 times less than something legit (and it obviously is), then some people with no money and lots of potential (even if they are normally law abiding citizens) may go for the cheaper option.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course they will. That doesn't make it right. But to consider this somehow different to shop-lifting or any other sort of theft is just naive.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As for demos, there is no way (as has already been written on this thread) that you can get free demos which are not crippled in some way (except the ones mentioned above (edited here!)) - if they weren't they would be free copies of the software.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly, and that's what you have to, or rather, should, be satisfied with.

Do you get to run a car through all its paces before you spend money on it (a lot more money, most likely, that you'll be spending on a computer program)? Of course not. You rely on probably a single test drive, reviews, and of course the reputation of the manufacturer. Software is no different, except that we do have the advantage, mostly, that we can download demo versions to try out in the comfort of our own home.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As for calling people who use pirated (hate that term, always remind me of buccaneers and stuff) software thieves, then, no matter what your courts say, I think you are incorrect.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course they're thieves. They're using someone else's hard work without paying for that right. If that's not theft, I don't know what it is.

--Dingo

Chuv · Apr 17, 2000

I think it's okay to pirate software, as long as you're nice to people.

dragonworks · Apr 17, 2000

My father always used to say, "the road
to hell is paved with good intentions". I just bought what I thought was a legit used version of emagic platinum pro 4.0, and guess
what, it dont work, its a pirate. Been doing
a little research on the side and it seems most of this stuff is coming from our good friends in Russia. I have found a website
whose address I mailed to the author of this
topic and it is full of music and art software. How does the saying go caveat emptor?

sonusman · Apr 17, 2000

Dingo, do you even find it somewhat of a crime that many software manufactures create software, adverstise it a capable of delivering a certain performance which it cannot, then not honoring those claims with a quick and timely fix, or issue a full money back recall of the product because it it flawed? If a car where made this way, it would enjoy a quick and full recall order from the government, and while this may have more to do with the fact that cars that are defective can potentially kill people. But, the principle that the software, or car, performs to at least the stated performance that is advertised is the same. It is the same for any product that makes claims that just are not true.

You don't find it funny that software developers are not sued because they produced a product that does not live up to it's claims? Just about any manufacture of a product who knowingly claims a certain performance or quality, advertises it, then doesn't deliver it is open to this. But software companies get around this with those nice little disclaimers that are part of the usage agreement that nobody reads. Of course, now a days, it is a given and seemingly accepted fact that the software is not going to work as advertised. In fact, people are shocked when it actually does.

Audio software is a tricky bag here friend. These developers are trying to cram in features that would normally be found in hardware products that would cost in the 10's of thousands of dollars, and make it work on hardware that is barely up to the task on a good day! The thing is, many of the audio software applications come with many glaring flaws right out of the box. Many of these issues are known to the developers at the time of sale to the public, and often, solutions are not available. But there is no little note on the box stating this. There is no advisement on the pretty advertisements stating the known definciencies. Nope, it is put across to the consumer as a fully functioning package that delivers the features and capabilities claimed on the box.

That my friend is the crime here.

Often, it takes the user several months of fiddling with it, and chasing down possible hardware/software conflicts to reach this conclusion; the software will not work properly. By then, I suppose that the developers hope they have a fix, and often do. But, the consumer was sold a defective product, not told it was defective even though the developer knew it was, no fix was available at the time of sale, and no fix is available for some time.

Another thing. These developers usually don't fess up to this, nor do they offer a full refund, just the new upgrade when it is available. The stores that sell the product do not honor it if the software package has been opened in many cases. I had this happen with my Alesis PCI card. The driver that came with it was flawed, would not work at all, no matter what. Alesis claimed that the card would support S/PDIF Type II (toslink) connection, which appearnly is does. But the kicker was that there was absolutely no software available to make this happen with their hardware.

Anyway, I tried to get a refund for the card. I didn't want it because not only did the supplied software not work, but Alesis had no clear idea when it would. The store said they cannot take it back because the software package was opened, thus, the software manufacture would not refund the money to them. Oh boy..... :rolleyes:

That is just my one example here. I am sure that many people could go on and on with similar stories.

Don't even get me started on McAfee software. You know, the stuff that actually makes your computer crash while fixing the problems that make your computer crash? Then, the problem turns out to not be fixed at all. They don't even state the degraded performance your computer will suffer when you load their crap. Not one mention of that at all! But yet, they claim that their software will make your computer work better and fix "known windows problems", yet their software creates new problems! Outright, they are lying to the customer, many of who trust that these products will work right out of the box.

I bought Audio Catalyst a while back and right on the box it stated that I could rip digital copies of CD's to my hard drive. It stated nowhere that my CD Rom has to have a Atapi driver to do so. Hell no, they don't mention anything anywhere, untill you buy the product and open it (often ruining any chance you have for a refund). Then you need to actually read through the online help to find this stuff out. So basically, you have to buy and install the program to find out that it won't work on your computer, even though your computer meets or exceeds the minimum requirements stated on the products box.

That my friend is a crime.

You pass judgement on only half the story dude. You say that people trying pirated software are simple thieves who should be prosecuted. But, you don't mention anything about the software companies being prosecuted for making false claims.

I suppose I can understand your position since you work in the business of developing software. You are worried about your job. I can understand that. But, you need to give your morality a fair field to play on. Software companies release bogus software, and that is wrong. Some people use pirated version of that bogus software to see if they want to spend their money on it. That is wrong too. If you don't want pirating to happen, make sure it works as advertised and all known issues are clearly stated before the sale.

So, since two wrongs don't make a right, what is the solution.

I will applaud the day that software manufactures release fully functioning software that works as advertised, and advises the potential user of the known capatibility issues. It will also be the day that I say throw the piraters in jail for their sins.

But for my money, I will bend a rule or two to potentially keep myself from a bad buy. I will keep this attitude no matter how many "legal points" you make, and no matter what kind of "morality" to try to put on it.

Oh, you solution of using the "demo" version is no good. The only "demo" version that told me anything about how the software will work is with GoldWave. You can acutally do something with the demo version. It is fully functional. No other software that I have tried a demo version of offered enough usability for me to effectively see if it works good enough to risk the money on it.

Anyway, I am not trying to start a pissing match here. I am not even trying to convince you to think any differently than you do. You are free to state your convictions all you want. But on this subject, you are mostly preaching to a deaf audience with your manner of thinking. There is little you can say that will make most of us think any differently of this subject because we have all been screwed by the same kinds of companies that you work for. You get it?

Ed

gaffa · Apr 17, 2000

Ed,

You're completely right regarding the quality of software out there. There are a massive number of snake oil salesmen flogging absolutely terrible products that haven't gone through QA etc.

The problem with software does not always lie with the programmers. As I stated above, I am a coding animal, but not for a commercial outfit. I have see and bought some atrocious software in my time, but I have an advantage that most people don't - if I can't find some software that does exactly what I want, I can write it myself.

The software industry suffers from a number of things. One is the development time. People want software, and they wanted it the day befroe yesterday. Most S/W houses have ridiculous turnaround times, and it is not uncommon for the marketers to look at an early beta build of a product, say "gee, that looks finished - it doesn't seem to be crashing", and convince management to market it. The coders can tell you there are massive flaws in it, but those cries fall on deaf ears.

In most markets, the product is built, the marketing written, and the product sold. Not the software industry. I have been given the marketing spiel and 1 and 1/2" of marketing brochures for a product (from a very large company that we all have heard of) and been told "OK, this is the product that we have been selling, we've got a couple of buyers, and delivery has been scheduled in 2 months. Write the product from scratch in two months". Let's just say that this kind of approach does not produce the most solid of software.

Car manufacturers (and this industry seems to be a common analogy) spend years building and testing a single vehicle. They could not build one to the same quality in the kind of relative time frames that developers work with.

Software engineering (with is the discipline of designing and developing software) is a very new industry, with very lax controls. A bit like the car industry at the start of the 20th century. It WILL take time to develop into a mature industry.

Any Tom, Dick or Harry with a computer can wake up one day and say "I want to be a programmer", go to a bookstore, get a visual basic in 21 days book, and setup shop as a coder. Do you think that he/she is going to produce decent software, adopt proper design and implementation methodologies etc. Fat f**king chance. No wonder real programmers are despised - we've got all these half-assed VB propgrammers out there giving us a bad rep. (Not to disparage VB as a language - I do 90% of my coding in VB, but it wasn't my first computer language. I didn't spend 4 years at university to produce shite software)

The industry needs controls and quality reviews a la the ISO standards. Then perhaps everybody would get decent software, decent service etc. But the industry is still in that snake oil slaesman phase.

As dragonworks said, caveat emptor.

Just don't force those companies who are attempting to produce decent software under by using pirated copies of their software. Dingo's estimate of the time required to write decent software was probably conservative. Look at his list of people. If you had to cut two people out of the equation there, but still deliver the product on time, who would go? QA every time.

A quick analogy to finish up. How many of you could write a book (novel) that was 2 million words long inside of 6 months? ANd just to complicate matters, the novel must be unambiguous - every person who reads it must imagine the same thing, oh yeah, and anybody who can read english (even those people for whom it is a seconf or third language) should be able to read it. Also, not allowed to have ANY typos (unlike this post

)

That's what writing computer software is like.

- gaffa

drstawl · Apr 17, 2000

I've gotten better relative functionality out of the Sonic Foundry Vegas Pro Demo than they gave me with the Goldwave demo although these were products covering a different market.
30 days was plenty of time to discover that I had to buy Vegas Pro.

Guest · Apr 17, 2000

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by sonusman:
Dingo, do you even find it somewhat of a crime that many software manufactures create software, adverstise it a capable of delivering a certain performance which it cannot, then not honoring those claims with a quick and timely fix, or issue a full money back recall of the product because it it flawed?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, but as you state later in your post, two wrongs don't make a right.

No matter how much software companies may be ripping you off, it still doesn't justify software piracy.

I'm quite amazed at the attitude that somehow if we peg the software companies as bad, or say we need to try stuff before we buy it, we can justify theft. You simply can't. If these arguments you are providing make you feel comfortable with stealing other people's work, then by all means go ahead and don't let me stand in the way. But at least recognize it for what it is.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>But, the principle that the software, or car, performs to at least the stated performance that is advertised is the same. It is the same for any product that makes claims that just are not true.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lots of crappy cars that don't live up to advertised claims have been manufactured over the years. The American car industry is full of them.

But, in the long run, people vote with their pockets and that's what drives change. But do that by not buying software from companies that product bad software, not by using pirated software.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>But software companies get around this with those nice little disclaimers that are part of the usage agreement that nobody reads. Of course, now a days, it is a given and seemingly accepted fact that the software is not going to work as advertised. In fact, people are shocked when it actually does.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you'll find that the majority of software companies aren't what you make them out to be, but rather are just honest, hardworking people trying to build a good product. Just like in any business. And, of course, like in any business, there are the shonky dealers also.

But no serious software company releases software they know doesn't work. There will always be bugs, even in the best software from the most well-intentioned developer will have bugs - that's just the nature of the business. If we sued for every lost hour due to software bugs, then no software companies would survive and we wouldn't have ANY software to work with. Again, vote with your wallet... If a company has a reputation for buggy software, don't buy their software!

There's no way that software piracy is going to solve this problem.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The thing is, many of the audio software applications come with many glaring flaws right out of the box. Many of these issues are known to the developers at the time of sale to the public, and often, solutions are not available.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would say that any piece of software with any level of complexity will have significant bugs in it when it is shipped. If we as users waited for software that was entirely bug free, we'd never get the software because that just doesn't exist. There are two main reasons software is released with bugs:

1. The software company knows they are there, but at some point they just have to ship. In any serious software development company, bugs will be rated according to severity. There are certain bugs which, if discovered, are absolutely "must fix before ship". There are other bugs that are lower priority which you try to fix before shipping, but again at some point you just have to ship or your users will never get the product. The software company suffers (lack of income) and the users suffer (they don't get the new version with the new features as soon as they might). It's a delicate balance to decide - we frequently have very heated arguments about whether a bug is absolutely has to be fixed or not. When you're about to send a gold CD off to manufacturing, it's sometimes a very hard decision. And you have to take into account that fixing a bug isn't always as easy as it seems. It's rarely a case of looking at the code and thinking "Oh, of course, how obvious - that should be a + b, not a - b". Many bugs can be incredibly complex to fix, and have the potential to result in other (perhaps worse) bugs. Do you slip the product a month to retest everything that needs to be retested after fixing a single bug? Sometimes yes, it's that important. Often no.

2. Frequently, bugs escape the QA process. Sometimes bugs that seem extremely blatant and unmissable to us can be missed during the QA process, even when a good beta program is in place. That's just the nature of testing - you can't test every possible combination, so you have to prioritize. One common problem is that something that worked previously gets broken - even something that you'd expect to be very obvious. That happens when changes are made (either to add features or fix bugs) that don't appear to have any impact on that feature but actually do. QA doesn't do as full a pass on that feature because it apparently hasn't been touched, and don't discover it's actually been broken. Realistically, a software company just cannot afford to test every component of a piece of software everytime a change is made.

Sometimes, software companies just intentionally release crappy software, but that's the exception rather than the rule. For the most part, I think you'll find they're trying to release the best product they can.

So, that's a lovely explanation of why there are bugs in software, I suppose. But really, none of it is relevant to the issue of software piracy. No matter how you try and explain it away, software piracy will never help resolve the problem of bugs in software. In fact, it will just make the problem worse because software companies will lose money they would otherwise get, and have less money to put into developing the product, which includes fixing bugs.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>But, the consumer was sold a defective product, not told it was defective even though the developer knew it was, no fix was available at the time of sale, and no fix is available for some time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

None of which justifies software piracy, of course.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Anyway, I tried to get a refund for the card...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand where you're coming from, but it still doesn't justify software piracy.

"Buyer beware" may be an unfortunate reality, but it is reality.

Research what you are going to buy before you buy so you won't have regrets afterwards.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You pass judgement on only half the story dude.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The simple fact of the matter is we were discussing whether software piracy was in any was OK, not whether the software industry rips us off.

Whether or not the software industry us off has no impact on whether software piracy is OK.

Just because grocery stores overprice the goods they sell doesn't justify me stealing those goods. Just because music companies overprice the CDs they sell doesn't justify me copying my friends' CD collections. Software piracy is no different.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You say that people trying pirated software are simple thieves who should be prosecuted. But, you don't mention anything about the software companies being prosecuted for making false claims.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because software companies making false claims doesn't have any bearing on whether software piracy is theft.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I suppose I can understand your position since you work in the business of developing sof

Guest · Apr 17, 2000

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cwillu · Apr 18, 2000

Nor does the fact that piracy exists condone the fact that software companies are making shoddy software... but somehow I doubt that you're making a similar stand against bad products on programming forums.

I think the sentiment we're try to get accross goes something like this:

If you (as in you personally, dingo) make shoddy software, well, you might as well pirate software, you're doing the same wrong.

If you are making quality software, then feel free to not use pirated software.

If you are actively and vocally protesting bad code, then, and only then, you can actively and vocally protest piracy.

Respectfully

William Underwood

Cakey2 · Apr 18, 2000

Awright?

Well, going back to the demos issue, it isn't like buying a new car, because when I buy a car (which, icidentally, may be less money than I'd pay for cubase vst) I am _able_ to try everything out - there's nothing to stop me. Demos actively stop me.

And as for the crime involved in using copied software, I think a good parallel is picking up a £5 note off the street. Certainly a crime. Ethically incorect? Depends on your viewpoint, no?

And, kinda related, how many cassettes do you have of your mates lps?

Hmmm.

Dingo · Apr 18, 2000

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by cwillu:
If you are actively and vocally protesting bad code, then, and only then, you can actively and vocally protest piracy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huh... So I can only protest against one wrong if I'm also protesting against another wrong? What utter bunk!

Your attempts to convince yourselves that this form of theft is OK are highly amusing, but it's still theft.

--Dingo

chuchosay · Apr 18, 2000

Dingo,

I agree with you--software piracy is illegal, period. I find it difficult, in fact nearly impossible, to justify software piracy. I admit to wanting to purchase pirated software myself. As a college student, being interested in the recording arts is very difficult. Can I afford to go to a school to get a recording arts degree? No, that is usually around $25,000 and up for one year for a good school. So consequently I have decided to keep my recording interests strictly hobby-based as of right now. But can I afford it as a hobby? Barely. I am far (FAR) from rich, and this is a hobby/occupation that takes a lot of money. I'm sure everyone can agree with that. Can I afford Sonic Foundry Vegas Pro? Can I afford Soundforge? Can I afford Cubase, Cool Edit, Softe Encode, etc.? The answer is 'no' to all of the above. My talent and opportunities I often find to be inhibited by the sheer cost of products, especially from the software industry. But you know what? That's too damn bad for me I guess. I am not supporting software piracy at all. I can't.

But in addition, I cannot support bad code. You don't either, Dingo, but you do "excuse" it with the following statement (and more not included):

"I would say that any piece of software with any level of complexity will have significant bugs in it when it is shipped. If we as users waited for software that was entirely bug free, we'd never get the software because that just doesn't exist. There are two main reasons software is released with bugs..." -Dingo posted 04-17-2000 22:33

You may not be supporting bad code. But you are definitely "accepting" or "excusing" it. This is something else that I find nearly impossible to do. Like others have stated, it is false advertising. This is simply another form of fraud.

So here we are: we have the public stealing from the industry, and the industry frauding the public. We're pretty much at a dead end here, aren't we?

But I have one last point. I find it hard, Dingo, to believe that you are a credible source to be preaching about piracy. Why do I assume this? Because I hate hyprocracy. Now of course that may sound somewhat harsh, but ask yourself the following:

Have you ever downloaded and listended to copyright MP3's or WAV's? Have you ever downloaded and viewed copyright videos? Have you ever made a tape copy, or burned a CD of your friend's CD or LP? Have you ever photocopied sheet music and handed it out to others? Have you ever sold a ticket to any sort of an event to one of your friends because you couldn't go? Have you ever let a mistake in a bank statement "slide?" Have you ever been in the checkout register, or for that matter, looked at your receipt after purchasing several products and realized that they forgot to ring up one of the items--did you let that "slide?"

And if I haven't yet gotten a "yes" out of you, I'm sure there is some form of "theft" that I have missed. Nobody is perfect, Dingo--in fact, nobody wants to be. I don't support or participate in piracy. I don't support or excuse bad code. I'll admit it: I HAVE STOLEN. But so have you, and for those reasons alone I think you should limit your conversations to simply stated opinions and cut out the sermon.

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