Pirate Software

I love this you guys, don't quit now. I
get real excited when I read this topic. I
may even by a sailboat and become a pirate
myself. Oh the life of a swashbuckler, to
roam the 7 seas with my parrot by may side.
I wood have a hard time with those wooden legs though.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chuchosay:
Dingo, I agree with you--software piracy is illegal, period.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, that's nice to hear.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As a college student, being interested in the recording arts is very difficult ... I am far (FAR) from rich, and this is a hobby/occupation that takes a lot of money. I'm sure everyone can agree with that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep. You're right. For me, add on to that the fact that I'm a keyboard player (another expensive hobby) and a computer geek (another expensive hobby), and you see why my wife is always wondering why she doesn't get to spend as much money on HER hobbies as I spend on mine.

Have you investigated student prices? I don't know if they exist in the realm of audio software... I'm remember when I was looking into notation software the student prices were very good (compared to the full retail price, anyway - it still might not look good to a poor student ;-)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But in addition, I cannot support bad code. You don't either, Dingo, but you do "excuse" it with the following statement (and more not included):

"I would say that any piece of software with any level of complexity will have significant bugs in it when it is shipped. If we as users waited for software that was entirely bug free, we'd never get the software because that just doesn't exist. There are two main reasons software is released with bugs..." -Dingo posted 04-17-2000 22:33

You may not be supporting bad code. But you are definitely "accepting" or "excusing" it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry if you interpreted this as me excusing bad code. "Code with bugs" and "bad code" are two different things. Like it or not, all code, even what anyone who knows anything would call "good code", will have bugs in it. "Bad code" is likely to have more bugs, and those bugs are likely to be more difficult to fix, but bugs don't make bad code per se.

I would very seriously doubt that there is a single piece of commercial software out there without bugs in it. And much of that software is very good code. I wasn't excusing bad code, I was explaining why bugs end up in released products.

I like to think I write good code, but I'll be the first to admit my code has bugs in it.

I'll never excuse bad code. Where I work, we have stringent code review procedures to try and prevent bad code (and bugs) getting into the product. Every line of code that is written by one person is reviewed by someone else. This very definitely goes a long way to prevent bad code, and a lot of bugs are found this way before the code ever gets to QA, but bugs still happen.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So here we are: we have the public stealing from the industry, and the industry frauding the public.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And neither justifies the other.

But as an industry insider, I can tell you for the most part that the industry isn't out to defraud the public. The bad eggs are definitely the exception rather than the rule.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But I have one last point. I find it hard, Dingo, to believe that you are a credible source to be preaching about piracy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whether or not I'm a credible source doesn't change the facts.

Here some information you might want to know... Have I ever used pirated software? Yes. Have I ever copied a friends CD or LP? Yes. But I've not done either of those since my early 20's, when I came to the conclusion that that was theft and made the decision that it wasn't something I'd do any more.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...Because I hate hyprocracy. Now of course that may sound somewhat harsh, but ask yourself the following:

Have you ever downloaded and listended to copyright MP3's or WAV's?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Have you ever downloaded and viewed copyright videos?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Have you ever made a tape copy, or burned a CD of your friend's CD or LP?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not since my early 20s (see above).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Have you ever photocopied sheet music and handed it out to others?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only when I had a license to do so.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Have you ever sold a ticket to any sort of an event to one of your friends because you couldn't go?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I can't remember that I've ever been in that situation. But you'll have to explain to me how you consider this theft? The ticket has been paid for... The people putting on the event don't care who sits in the seat. I certainly wouldn't sell the ticket for more than I paid for it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Have you ever let a mistake in a bank statement "slide?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hah! No! Even when the mistake was in my favor.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Have you ever been in the checkout register, or for that matter, looked at your receipt after purchasing several products and realized that they forgot to ring up one of the items--did you let that "slide?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You may find this hard to believe, but no. And if I even point it out when they give me too much change.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And if I haven't yet gotten a "yes" out of you, I'm sure there is some form of "theft" that I have missed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There undoubtedly is. I'm only human. But I try to avoid knowingly stealing anything.

But I'm no saint. And I don't think I need to be a saint to protest that software piracy is nothing but simple theft, which is what I've been protesting here all along.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...I think you should limit your conversations to simply stated opinions and cut out the sermon.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps it sounds like sermonizing, but that's not my intent. It simply amazes me how people can justify away to themselves something like this. Software piracy is simply theft, no question. People pirating software or using pirated software are stealing. If they want to do that, they should go ahead, but they should at least admit to themselves what it actually is they're doing.

There's a common perception that stealing from big corporations is OK. But when it all comes down, you're really just stealing from people.

--Dingo
 
MY GOD MAN !!! dingo now holds the homerecording.com longest post honor.. Ed , you need to do something about this..

my name is eddie , and i am a pirate.. i use pirated software.. and if its useful enough, i buy it.. now really most people that use pirated software dont have the money to buy the real deal anyway , so the company isnt really losing that money.. but yes , its still stealing..and im not justifying it..

BUT...i also own about a grand worth of software that i would have NEVER bought if i didnt use the pirated versions first.. so go figure...

ps..i didnt even read any of these posts , i just sorta skimmed..

- eddie -
 
Let me see if I have this right...I can be a pirate if I get the right software? Does a wooden boat and a skull flag come with it?
 
Eddie...wasn't that you who posted the story of the boy with the burlap sack full of leaves for a body? Anyone? Where is that story? I can't find it, and I need a fix.
 
monty.. wasnt me , i think it was tucchi ..

dingo , chew on this..then tell me what you think..

You won't see software publishers talk about it in their glossy product brochures or on their web sites. I've never seen it listed in an advertisement, and it is rarely mentioned in magazine product reviews. It affects almost everyone who buys software, yet vendors go to great lengths to avoid talking about it. I'm referring, of course, to software copy protection, the audio industry's dirty little secret. Traditionally, copy protection has been more of a burden for Mac than PC users, but I am greatly disturbed by the recent trend of PC programs to start using copy protection too. Let me state up front that I am vigorously opposed to software piracy, and my objections to copy protection are based solely on its negative impact for legitimate users.

Copy protection comes in many forms, and is an attempt by manufacturers to limit the use of their software to people who actually buy it. The simplest form of protection requires you to enter a serial number when the program is first installed. In practice this protects very little, since anyone can lend the installation disks to a friend along with the serial number. All this does is minimize the chance that someone will upload the program to a web site for others to retrieve. Since they'd also have to include the serial number, that number could be used to identify them--assuming they had registered the program. A more severe form of copy protection uses a key disk, which is a floppy disk that cannot be copied and is needed to install the program.

The most punitive protection method uses a device called a dongle that comes with the software and must be attached to the computer's parallel or serial port. If the dongle is not connected, the program detects that and refuses to run. A recent protection trend requires you to phone or email the manufacturer when the program is installed; they give you a special code number to enter, which is needed to install.

There is no doubt that a lot of software--and not just audio software--is illegally copied, and I am not without sympathy for the software companies. In many cases someone buys a program and then "loans" it to a friend who installs it too. In other cases a large company will buy one copy of a program and then install it on 400 computers. Most damaging of all are the misguided losers who buy or borrow a program, and then crack it and upload it to a web site for others to download and use. (Cracking means modifying a program to remove the part that asks for a serial number, or checks for the key disk, or verifies that a dongle is attached to the computer.) Indeed, many people believe that copy protection is a nuisance only for legitimate users because would-be pirates can find cracked versions of many programs on the Internet if they look hard enough.

What's So Bad About Copy Protection?

It would be difficult to condemn copy protection if it protected the publishers without harming the legitimate user. Unfortunately, it usually does harm legitimate users. Some protection schemes interfere with disk optimizers, requiring you to uninstall all of the programs that use such protection each time you defragment your hard disk, and then reinstall them all again after. When I'm working on an audio project I defragment my hard drives daily or even more often, and having to uninstall and reinstall several programs every time would be a terrible nuisance! Admittedly, this is less of a problem today, now that hard disks are cheap and audio files are often kept on a separate drive that can be defragmented independently.

Any copy protection scheme that requires intervention from the publisher has the potential to cause you disaster. Suppose you're working on a project and your hard disk fails. So you go to Staples and buy another, only to find that your Key disk is no longer readable or it reports that you already used up your two allowable installations. Even the seemingly benign method of calling the vendor for an authorization number is a burden if you're working on a weekend and can't reach them on the phone. Or suppose the dongle simply stops working? You're in the middle of a project with a client paying $200 per hour, and you're hosed because even with overnight shipping the new dongle won't arrive until tomorrow.

The ultimate disaster is when the software vendor goes out of business. In that case you can forget about ever getting a replacement dongle or key disk. I have many thousands of hours invested in my music programs. This includes not only the time spent creating my audio tracks, MIDI sequences, and printed scores, but also the time it took to learn these programs. I use Master Tracks and Encore from Passport Designs, which still serve me well after many years. Even though Passport is no longer in existence, my enormous investment is secure because I have safe copies of all the original disks. I have never and will never buy any program that I cannot backup and use without intervention from the publisher for exactly this reason.

Just The Facts, Ma'am

Is copy protection really the best solution? Does every pirated program really reflect lost income? According to the latest figures from the Software & Information Industry Association (formerly the SPA), in 1998 pirated software accounted for $11 billion in lost sales. But this assumes that every pirated program would have been purchased, which clearly is not the case!

Bob Lentini of Innovative Quality Software, maker of the SAW line of multi-track software, is philosophical on the subject: "We don't use copy protection on any of our current products. It has been my experience that in the long run the pirates do not cause as many lost sales as you might expect. Those of the pirate mentality would never have purchased the product anyway if they could not steal it. Many of our customers came to us after running a pirated version for a short time, and then decided that they could not live without the product and wanted to register for access to support and free downloads and other product discounts. Others have purchased after seeing a pirated version running in some other location...free advertising."

Tom Johnson from Coda (Finale) feels similarly: "We have tried a few forms of protection over the years. Currently we have a system that places the moral burden on the software owner. When Finale is loaded onto a hard drive from its CD, it locks to that hard drive. This is invisible to the user but prevents copying the software off the hard drive. However, there is nothing stopping the software owner from giving his or her CD to another individual thereby giving them permission to copy the CD."

SEK'D America (publisher of Samplitude) uses an uncopyable key disk, but it also accepts that piracy exists despite its best efforts. According to Michael Seltzer, "Cracked versions of almost all software exist on the Internet. This seems to be an unstoppable fact of life. Personally, I have no problem registering anyone who calls our office because I feel that in this new world (Internet) the concept of 'marketing through piracy' and 'free pre-release' and 'shareware' versions are appropriate and rather effective. Samplitude has always been a very deep program with many layers of functionality. An owners manual and the support of our Tech team is almost required to learn Samplitude's ocean of features and methods of working. For SEK'D, word of mouth is by far how most people discover Samplitude, and that is much more important to us than big hyped-up print ads. Access to trial and cracked versions, or a friend's version, will often create another Samplitude evangelist, spreading the good word about our products!"

But a more typical response from many software vendors is that without copy protection, not enough people would buy their products for them to stay in business. This is patently false, as evidenced by the strong advertising presence of PG Music and Cakewalk. The last time I checked, Microsoft was doing
 
Eddie,

I agree with practically everything you said. How's that?

With regards to copy protection, I can see why companies do it, but I agree with you - I don't think it's a great idea. No matter what form of copy protection you use it can be cracked, so why bother? Why waste money and resources on it, and, as you say, often needlessly inconvenience your users, when it's gonna be cracked anyway.

I guess using some form of copy protection makes it that much harder for your average Joe (or Joan) to get hold of a working version, but I don't know that it's worth it.

There's also probably a breed of person that thinks that if the software isn't copy protected, it's that much more OK to use it without paying for it - obviously that's what the developer intended if they didn't bother to copy protect it, right? ;-)

Obviously many software companies consider that it IS worth it, and is important enough to them to do it. I'd rather they didn't, but it's their product - they can do what they like with it.

The software company I work for has never used copy protection on its products beyond entering a serial number. And that's not really for copy protection - that's more so that there's a copy of your serial number that you can see in the About box of the program in case you lose the printed version.

With regards to software being overpriced - you're probably right. But as I explained in another post, software development is an expensive business, especially when your market is relatively small (like it would be in the audio industry).

Obviously, the two main factors that influence the price of a piece of software are what it cost to develop, and what the market will bear. Software companies are businesses, and are there to make money. So they'll always try to find that sweet spot that maximizes their profit. Price it too high, and not enough people buy it. Price it too low, and you don't get enough extra sales to balance the lower cost.

You also have to consider what your competitors are charging. The software I work on had a competitor that, some years ago, was priced about 5 times more for really no extra features. Interestingly, that actually meant they got sales WE MISSED because, particularly in big business, we weren't even considered a contender because we didn't cost enough! Over time, our price has gone up and their price has gone down, and we've achieved a certain balance.

But mostly, if the market is small, as it is in the audio industry, the software is gonna cost a lot more. If the market's huge, the software is gonna cost a lot less (on average).

I guess it's hard to define what's overpriced. Obviously, overpriced to a sotware company means if they charged less they'd make more money because enough more people would buy the software to balance the lower price. But I imagine finding that spot is very hard. And sometimes, as I mention above, you actually have to INCREASE your price to reach the target audience you want. Sounds stupid, but it's true.

Overpriced to US means whatever is more than we want to pay for it ;-)

Here's a (perhaps) interesting example... As I've mentioned before that I was recently on the market for notation software. I found an extraordinary range of both price (anthing from about $40 to $600) and features/usability. By far the sweetest program (for me) was Sibelius, but it was priced WAY beyond what I wanted to pay for something that was just a thing I do on the side. Was it overpriced? When I look at the range of what's available, and consider what their target user probably is, I don't think so. I ended up getting Cakewalk's ScoreWriter (the cut-down version of Overture), which was a bargain for me as it did everything I needed, was very easy to use, and gave me a lot of change out of $100.

And of course, the bottom line to me is this... While over-priced software might help EXPLAIN the existence and prevelance of pirated software, it still doesn't make software piracy any less theft, nor does it justify the individual who uses pirated software.

--Dingo
 
Yeah- like I said, Sonic Foundry's anti-piracy scheme pissed me off because my continued utilization of the pricey software license I bought is tied to their continued existence. Otherwise the SW dies when my PC dies. They tie Vegas Pro licenses to the MB serial # and it won't work without the code number they make out of this # and your SW serial #, run it through Enigma and send back via E-mail.
It's a tough business no matter who you are, so it's easy to feel nervous about the continued existence of any particular outfit.
But on the other hand they never held anything back when they provided a demo of their product. It was 100% functional.
 
You know, this entire thread displays what's wrong with society today. People have such an entitlement attitude, it's really amazing.

Sonusman's (and many others') posts are making me sick. You are describing THEFT. Not 'market forces.' Software piracy is THEFT. No, I don't work for a SW company; I don't even program worth a darn. But if you applied this same logic to automobiles or groceries or anything else that can't be stolen and distributed as easily as 0s and 1s, you would be in jail!

I have purchased CW PA9, WaveLab 3, CoolEdit, and several other audio programs, ALL after using the demo first to see what they were about, and have not had any regrets.

What's this about 'SW companies making claims that they can't deliver?' Bull. The programs work as advertised; so there are limitations to Software audio. Sonusman, usually you're the first one to preach about SW never coming close to good pro audio hardware, and now you're 'shocked' that these programs don't kick serious butt?

The rest of us are glad these programs EXIST, because we can't afford 2 grand on a single piece of mastering gear, which alone wouldn't even get you anywhere.

Besides all of that, no matter how well these programs work for you (and they work fine for me, and many others, obviously), nothing justifies THEFT.

We live in a culture of Post-Modern values where everything is judged based on how the whole situation makes you feel. So, you're a little upset that a piece of SW you spent three hundred bucks on didn't whip your audio into Pro-Radio shape?

We all know what these programs are capable of, and AREN'T capable of, inherently. Sure, the advertising says 'this is what seperates your mixes from what you hear of the radio,' but if you believe that (which, Sonusman, I know you don't) then you need to learn a few lessons about audio.

I'm finished; you guys can use all the justifications you want. In the end, you're using them because you need to do just that: justify what you know is WRONG.

-Nathan
 
Not....what's really wrong with the world today is people trying to impose their sense of morality on anybody else...that totally sucks...gibs
 
No, I for one just want you to recognize what software piracy really is. If you choose to steal or support theft, that's entirely your decision. But at least do it recognizing it for what it is.

It's not a matter of opinion whether software piracy is theft - it simply is. It may be a matter of opinion whether or not it is a form of theft that is OK, but I'm sorry if anyone feels ripping off another persons hard work is OK.

So go ahead and do what you want, but at least admit to yourself what it really is you're doing.

--Dingo
 
A teenage band plays some cover songs at a frat party that charges a buck to get in....let's go to the authorities by god, and make those little THIEVES pay...thank you so much for only wanting to enlighten us while at the same time you bandy around words like "theft" and "ripping off people's hard work" aimed at the very people you wanna give yer bemused sanctimonius rant to...chill, Dingo, chill......gibs
 
Could I get a little pirate hat and maybe a long curved sword to go with the boat and skull flag. I think I know where I can borrow an eye patch, a peg leg, and a parrot, but I still can't find the software.
 
My name is DUKE-X, and I am a pirated softwareaholic...this is my story...

It all started when I wanted to record music with my computer but didn't have money for recording software...blah...blah...blah...I was seduced by offers of "free sex, er software" on the Internet, tried to resist temptation, but stumbled instead onto my knees and greedily slaked my thirst at the trough of illegitimate wares...blah...blah...blah...then I sought refuge from my own wickedness, my own sickness, at this BBS.

"It's hereditary, it's in yer jeans...er genes," they said, "and it's not yer fault..."

...blah...blah...blah...so I stayed and rested here, gaining strength and knowledge about home recording...blah...blah...blah...but now I am again confronted, no, pursued by my sin. And alas, I'm now hearing that I truly am badd--not the good kinda badd--the bad kinda badd, and I am overwhelmed with sadness for myself and others of my thieving ilk...blah...blah...blah, and I think I need help from a greater power.

I studied the Bible, and in one part Jesus said: "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone." And I was humbled.

So I ask, are there any of them non-sinners here on this BBS? If so, identify yourselves, because a sermonizing voice came to me this morning when I was masturbating in the shower (is masturbating a sin?) and told me that if I can hunt you down, kill you, and eat your pure hearts and brains, this will make me also pure.

But first...I think I need a hug.

[This message has been edited by tdukex (edited 04-22-2000).]
 
I just read through this thread for the first time. I can understand why there's a lot of activity, because we're none of us perfect saints.

C'mon, guys. Theft is theft.

Would you buy a hot guitar?
 
for the guys sticking up for the software companies and against pirating (which i basically am agreeing with) what about this case scenario.. i buy a peice of software and take it home, i tried the demo and liked it first so i think it is what i want, but for some reason my slow computer can't handle it/my soundcard won't work with it/it won't install/etc etc... i can't return it since i opened it and the store i bought it from is bad with their return policy, so i put it up on ebay and get 2/3 what i paid... i lost money, somebody got a price reduced version of the software, and the store (which goes to the distributor which goes to the software company) got the full amount, however only from me, not from the guy i sold it too.... now did i steal anything? was "theft" committed? should i be prosecuted? just up for opinions..
 
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