Pirate Software

skweeks,

I agree that the return policies on software is abysmal. Up until about 2 years ago, it was almost impossible to get a refund for software that was dodgy. It's improved her is Oz, thanks to the consumer and competition watchdog, but I don't know what it's like over in the US.

One point against the software developers - the usage license is criminal. Have a read of one of them - they practically absolve themselves of anything that could possibly happen through the use of the software, including poverty and world debt. Bloody ridiculous.

- gaffa
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gaffa:
One point against the software developers - the usage license is criminal. Have a read of one of them - they practically absolve themselves of anything that could possibly happen through the use of the software, including poverty and world debt. Bloody ridiculous.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's true. However, most reputable software companies will refund your money if you have genuine reasons why you feel the software doesn't work for you - if you feel it doesn't live up to advertised claims, if it just doesn't work right on your computer or whatever. If the store you bought it from won't help you, go to the software company that developed the software.

My employers policy is pretty much to accept returns no questions asked. Does that leave us to being screwed by software pirates? Certainly. But we'd much rather garner the good-will of our customers and potential customers. That's also why we don't use any nasty forms of copy protection.

I think you'll also find this is the policy of most reputable software companies who develop quality software.

What about software companies that aren't reputable or don't develop quality software? I don't believe anyone who has access to the internet and goes and puchases software from companies like that has any excuse. A little research on the internet and you can very quickly work out who's reputable and who's not, who manufactures quality software and who doesn't. Do your research! Talk to people who've used the different products! Try the demos! There are just so many different avenues for getting the information you need, you should never need to end up with software on your computer that was a waste of money.

--Dingo
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by skweeks:
for the guys sticking up for the software companies and against pirating (which i basically am agreeing with) what about this case scenario.. i buy a peice of software and take it home, i tried the demo and liked it first so i think it is what i want, but for some reason my slow computer can't handle it/my soundcard won't work with it/it won't install/etc etc... i can't return it since i opened it and the store i bought it from is bad with their return policy, so i put it up on ebay and get 2/3 what i paid... i lost money, somebody got a price reduced version of the software, and the store (which goes to the distributor which goes to the software company) got the full amount, however only from me, not from the guy i sold it too.... now did i steal anything? was "theft" committed? should i be prosecuted? just up for opinions..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You didn't steal anything. You sold something you owned - perfectly legitimate.

--Dingo
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gibs:
...thank you so much for only wanting to enlighten us while at the same time you bandy around words like "theft" and "ripping off people's hard work" aimed at the very people you wanna give yer bemused sanctimonius rant to...chill, Dingo, chill......gibs<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure why you're letting it all get to you so much, gibs, unless perhaps it's hitting a little close to home. Don't take it so personally!

All I've done is call a stone a stone. To call software piracy anything other than "theft" is simply avoiding the facts.

But I'm not targetting anyone. I've not accused anyone here of being a thief or ripping off other people's hard work. I've just said that that's what software piracy does, and that that's what people who pirate software or use pirated software are doing.

--Dingo
 
A little too close to home?...are you implying that I trade in pirate software?....the same way you imply that anyone using same are thieves?...and yet you say you're not saying any of that, right?...perhaps all this is hitting a little too close to home for you...hopefully you haven't been stealing paper clips or something from work, or (shudder) calling in sick when you're not.....tsk, tsk, the world today...absolutely a moral dilema everywhere I turn.....gibs :D
 
I agree with your take, Dingo.
Thievin' is Thievin'.

OK Here's a concrete example.
I went to the local office supply house and purchased two boxes of 10 CDRs and one box of 10 CDRWs at twice the price of the CDRs. When I got home the box of 10 CDRWs turned out to contain only nine CDRWs! This was a sealed box. Sealed with scotch tape like CDs are sealed. Now who thieved who here?
Probably an employee of Staples stole the CDRW and then resealed the box. I don't really know. I wasn't there. But I was robbed plain and simple. And I'm pissed off.
 
Here's one for ya. This one's easy, because we're talking extremes, and none of us do this, right?

I come home about 5:30 from work to my house with it's new addition. I haven't even gotten the new mortgage slips in the mail, yet. Front door with the 2" deadbolt is kicked in, together with the doorjamb and a few square feet of sheetrock inside. Not a sound to be heard.

I go in (dumb shit) and do the Rockford files thing. Just as I realize that I Really Don't Want to know a whole lot about whether there's still somebody there whose crazy enough to do that to my door in broad daylight, I hear my wife pull up. Before I can react, I'm hearing "Daddy! Daddy!" headed to the front door. Don't think I ever hit the adrenalin quite like that before.

No, there was nobody in the house. And they missed the opportunities(such as they were), opting for a stereo (left one speaker behind) and a few trinkets. I later found other things were missing - chainsaw, tools, car stuff. Eighteen hundred dollars later the front entrance was fixed.

I figured this had to be Dumb and Dumber at work. Wrong. It was Mr. Don't-look-at-me-like-that. They caught him, and he's finishing up three years in a federal pen.

Why am I writing this? Well, maybe its because if he cares at all, he's probably pissed at me. I'm the same sitting duck that I was before, and there isn't a damn thing I can do about it, unless, of course, I want to worry about my six-year old farting around with Daddy's loaded Glock when he isn't looking.

So if I seem a little testy when I start reading threads waxing eloquent that cracked software is O.K. if "we all do it" or if it's "the big corporations" or "they deserve it" or some other such horseshit, there's a reason. I've been on the other side, and I've got news for you.

There just isn't any such thing as a little theft.
 
For some reason, I don't feel that a cracked version of Samplitude, Cakewalk or MS Office is going to endanger the lives of women and children... (I'm sure that some of the imaginative persons on this bbs could envision a way, however.)

I have used pirated warez - so what? Am I a thief? Sure. Would I steal your car or invade your home? Of course not.
Most of the warez I've used are progs that I simply can't afford - so, did software company X lose money? Nope, 'cause I couldn't buy it anyway. I have, however, recommended the warez that I've used to others, who have purchased legitimate copies - software company X doesn't lose money 'cause I'm not in the marketplace anyway, but makes money because I've recommended the product to others who do buy - hence, software company X makes money. Is piracy wrong? Sure, but it may be a necessary evil for many of the reasons listed earlier in this thread - R&D, quality control, the list goes on... This is old, old ground that's being tread on here....
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jitteringjim:
Is piracy wrong? Sure, but it may be a necessary evil for many of the reasons listed earlier in this thread - R&D, quality control, the list goes on...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And no-one has yet given a reason that holds water how software piracy helps any of those things.

Why? Because it simply doesn't. To argue that software piracy can in some way be justified because of some incidental positive effects it might have is like saying armed robbery is justified because it provides employment to a lot of cops.

The negatives far out-weigh the positives - if there are any positives. Software piracy certainly doesn't help R&D or quality control. In fact, when you take everything into account, it significantly hinders both those things because of lost revenue.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This is old, old ground that's being tread on here....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, and it's as wrong and unjustifiable now as it ever was.

--Dingo

[This message has been edited by Dingo (edited 04-24-2000).]
 
This horse is dead for me...nobody's gonna change their minds....ok Dingo you win....all hail the one who knows what's best for everybody and whose virtue is boundless...gibs
 
Alright, time to voice my opinion. First of all, a little background. I download songs off of Napster all the time and burn them to CD's. Do I think it is wrong? A little bit. The problem I have with the anti-piracy contingent is their argument that "theft is theft", plain and simple, end of story. No it isn't, you can't just equate all crimes. Do you equate murder with pulling into a parking space with a meter and not putting change in? The fact is, the public perception is that breaking copyright laws for personal use is not that big of a deal. If you have a stake in the business, a band losing money because of Napster, or a software designer, obviously, it is a much bigger deal. Do you ever drive above the speed limit? Well you're nothing more than a common criminal. The thing is, I consistently drive at least 10 miles above the speed limit and pass highway patrolmen and they do nothing about it. That tells me that the very people who enforce the law don't feel like I'm doing anything wrong. The same as when I download song after song and make CD's and no one does anything about it. Another thing about calling piracy theft, is that there is a fundamental difference between what most of us consider theft and copying software. At some point someone paid for the software. When a criminal shoplifts, it is totally different. More importantly than all of this is looking at the big picture. The average Joe doesn't know a damn thing about cracking software or even how to burn a CD for that matter. Sure they might learn but by that time there will be greater security measures that they know nothing about. Technology will continue to advance and people will continue to find ways to break copyright laws but only a limited few who are much more advanced technologically than your average person. Which means 95% of the business will still be there. For a company who sells huge volumes, a 5% loss is a tremendous amount of money but they're still doing alright financially. Basically, I think people who know how to get free copies of software, music, etc. are just taking advantage of the fact that they are smart enough to do it. I also think that the general public agrees with that and in some cases, what the majority believes to be true, is true as a result. Now if someone uses their ability to make copies and sell them for profits, that is a differnt story altogether and a much more serious offence. As a result, they are much more likely to be penalized for it than the guy who has a borrowed copy of MS Office. That's pretty much all I have to say on the subject. I know the anti-piracy camp is just going to say that I am trying to justify my crimes and they would be right but I think my argument is pretty solid.
 
If you new how to write pirate proof software, your software would not be pirated (cracked). Solution to all problems. Maybe it's not possible to write crack proof software, but I know that i could write a program that would not be cracked with ease. Other solution would to pay a "pro. cracker" to code a "un-crackable" program. Just a few thoughts from me =o)
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cliff:
If you have a stake in the business, a band losing money because of Napster, or a software designer, obviously, it is a much bigger deal.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, theft always seems worse to the person being robbed than to the person doing the robbing.

--Dingo
 
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Hands up how many of you actually own a legal version of Microsoft Office?
-----------------------------------------
ME! Well, OK, that's not quite true. I use it through my employer's license with Microsoft (that is, I don't own it, my employer does).

--Dingo

*****************************************
Dingo, don't you find that just a little hypocritical? What do you call using software with someone else's license? I wonder what other software your using illegally. Get off the soap box.
 
Hyderipper, what soap box? Dingo isn't asking for any conversion here, he's just calling a spade a spade.

Layth
 
but..but.. illegal stuff is just so much more fun.. hes my warped analogy :

driving a car is boring..driving a stolen car is fun !!

using software is boring.. but using pirated software is fun !!

being that using stolen software is more fun it actually stimulates our creative juices to the point where we can write better songs and record better takes.. what im trying to say is that USING STOLEN SOFTWARE MAKES YOU A BETTER MUSICSIAN !!! yeah..thats it.. :)

- eddie -
 
I'm not a software pirate because I'm a bad person. Honestly. I just like wearing the patch and the sword is cool too.

Slackmaster 2000
 
Eddie: I can sympathize with your sense of thrill with the "illegal" aspects of certain behaviors.
I sure get a blast out of emulating my favorite folk hero, referenced in Steely Dan's great tune, Kid Charlemagne. But that's where the similarity ends. None of my victims ever does anything but BEG me to victimize them again as soon as possible.
Is this what you'd say if some lowlife scumbag stole your car?
"Wait, stop; come back. You didn't take my PC or my stereo or my TV or my girlfriend."
 
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