Group buy preamp poll...

[A.j.]

Another vote to say that I don't have enough info yet to vote...

Aj (who just realized that the only 2 ch pre is the standalone)

 

[tarnationsauce2]

I hope the final case for the 2ch preamp will fit into a 1 or 2 space rack enclosure.

Also, the standalone is the only "tube" based preamp. I wonder if it is full voltage xfmr coupled preamp.

Unfortunately, I also think it is just too early to decide.

 

[Ironklad Audio]

Yeah, if I am looking at #3 correctly, it does have a HP filter and a Hi shelf.

If that's true, you should edit the poll to say Preamp #3 is a (3-band EQ fixed HiShelf, HP filter, w/DI and VU meter).

i think you're right on that one...i figured the lack of the little high-shelf logo meant that it didn't have the hi-shelf on there, which, to me, is the best feature of the 1073 EQ...but looking at it closer, it does appear to refer to 12k on that last knob.

now the question is whether it'll let me edit the poll...

 

[mshilarious]

I don't want to rain on anybody's parade, so feel free to skip my comments.

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I think the celebration over the Neve-like qualities of these preamps is premature. For the price these will probably be offered, it's a good deal just to have the case, connectors, knobs, silkscreen, etc. If approached from a DIY/mod perspective, I would have no qualms.

However, the picture of the PCB Marik posted the other day leaves me concerned about a much more complicated product from the same vendor. I will defer to Marik since he has the product in his hands, but from the picture the PCB design and assembly quality seem to not be good. There has already been discussion of the cut traces. I don't mind if they cut a trace to add an optional component to a circuit (leaving aside whether or not it should have been added), but the cuts themselves were very sloppy, one of them appears to stretch an inch past its mark, and the other nicked an adjacent trace.

Some of the solder joints look to have pits. I'm not sure about that, it's hard to tell from the picture. The board was not defluxed, which doesn't trouble me per se, but it does allow me to seeing the wanderings of the iron across the PCB.

Most significantly from the point of view of a preamp, the PCB layout is haphazard. Two pads did not line up with the component, so you see holes drilled and leads bent over to meet traces. There is no ground plane, just a ground trace (I believe that was the trace that was cut, so in this case was that by design, since it's much harder to cut a plane?) Sometimes neatness counts in a preamp . . .

If this is something you'd expect would turn into a DIY project, I would submit that there are people out there offering kits with quality PCB design and manufacture, and quality components offered upfront, at a similar cost to these preamps.

 

[giraffe]

don't waste money on eq, it's impossible to make a decent one in that price range so i'd want none, or at least one that is bypassable.

seems like a waste of money mostly.

probably too late for this, but all i want is a pre, take the savings from the crap i don't want, and build a better pre.

 

[tarnationsauce2]

I don't want to rain on anybody's parade, so feel free to skip my comments.

Feel free to skip this comment if it rains on your parade of raining on our parade. lol

Keep in mind this mfg company produces for other musical electronics distributors. So, the same quality goes into them as well as TnC.

Also keep in mind that you have not seen inside these preamps.

With that aside....
A sloppy circuit can still sound good.
And, if done right a sloppy circuit can be very reliable.
You should see some of the breadboarding I've done for prototypes. Look like ass, and have shitty layouts but worked great and never had a problem with them.
From a DIY perspective these preamps can be a good deal. And also from a modding perspective.

I do see your point though. I just don't want to scare people off who may think the things you listed are detrimental. This gear is far from slutty, or hand built by someone who sincerely cares like you or I. But for the price....

dontwaste money on eq, it's impossible to make a decent one in that price range so i'd want none, or at least one that is bypassable.

seems like a waste of money mostly.

Chance and some of his friends have heard these preamps and say they do sound good. To say it's impossible to make a reasonable priced EQ sound good seems like a baseless remark. People used to say a condenser mic under 1k could never sound good. Times are changing, I have never seen a transformer coupled preamp for this kind of price. I'm curious to see how these play out.
BTW the EQ's are bypassable.

 

[giraffe]

just the parts list on an eq is way more expensive then the parts list for a pre of equivellent quality (assumeing that kind of comapirison can be made)

i'd rather more money was spent on the pre, but i'm sure there still very good for the money and will probably order one and try it.

 

[up-fiddler]

Have I missed something??

Exactly when do we need to place the order and send the cash? Will Paypal work? I definately want in with the mics and pres but am not certain what I need to do from this end. Perhaps I am having a particularly stupid day. I emailed that I wanted in but haven't received any confirmation yet. I just don't want to be left with $$$ in my pocket and no pre and no mic.

 

[crazydoc]

Exactly when do we need to place the order and send the cash? Will Paypal work? I definately want in with the mics and pres but am not certain what I need to do from this end. Perhaps I am having a particularly stupid day. I emailed that I wanted in but haven't received any confirmation yet. I just don't want to be left with $$$ in my pocket and no pre and no mic.

Hey, take a chill-pill. You're OK. All this here is premature ejaculation.

If you sent your email, just kick back and wait, and check these threads occasionally.

No one else has had a reply yet either.

 

[chance]

Thanks for posting the poll
It's starting to look like there will be no problem getting a quantity of 100 of each of the 3 pres. I am basing this ONLY on the few LA engineers that were here and tried it out. Nothing is set in stone yet, but when I get the specs, I will post.

 

[mshilarious]

From a DIY perspective these preamps can be a good deal. And also from a modding perspective.

I do see your point though. I just don't want to scare people off who may think the things you listed are detrimental. This gear is far from slutty, or hand built by someone who sincerely cares like you or I. But for the price....

I agree. It could be a very good deal from a modding perspective. However, we know that a significant number of the mics needed initial repair, and Marik had certain concerns regarding the tube PSU. These aren't trivial issues. A preamp with 4-band para EQ is a much more complicated piece of gear.

I suggest that anyone who feels able to mod or repair gear or build DIY projects would probably be interested. But once you start threads dropping the N-bomb, you're going to get a lot of people who have never picked up a soldering iron interested. I have already seen threads here where newbies have been recommended these pres. I do not think that is indicated. Not everyone is comfortable with the same risk/reward ratio.

As for me, I don't need pres, and if I did I would just build them . . .

 

[wreckd504]

I don't mod or repair, but now i'm thinking maybe I should re-consider.

 

[donkeystyle]

The toft eq is supposed to be at the very least decent, possibly great and it's in that range. The toft dual channel preamp/eq is 600.00 sale price give or take a bit. At that price, toft is probably paying less or at most the same price for their stereo unit (before marketing and R&D) than chance thinks he'll probably be charging everyone who buys his single channel unit.

He also has a standalone pre that it sounds like will be available for the next buy.

don't waste money on eq, it's impossible to make a decent one in that price range so i'd want none, or at least one that is bypassable.

seems like a waste of money mostly.

probably too late for this, but all i want is a pre, take the savings from the crap i don't want, and build a better pre.

 

[mshilarious]

I don't mod or repair, but now i'm thinking maybe I should re-consider.

I don't want to be the scapegoat for people not ordering, but maybe a slowdown in excitement is warranted.

Take the ACM-2 and ACM-3, I think it were. The ACM-2 was fine, the ACM-3 was not so good. I believe the ribbon motors were essentially the same. Bad day at the factory? Bad day at one workstation?

One thing to consider is that if you order 400 of the same pre, rather than 100 of 4 different pres, you might get better QC (not to mention a lower price). The assemblers might get more used to that product. The PCB could very well be a single design, even with the 4 different models. If so, that could mean more bottom-of-the-board hacking to make the different models. With one model, maybe there would be less of that.

I can't really say for sure, these are just my reactions in doing my own PCB assembly (which I've done 4 hours so far today). I like to try to use one design to make different products too. PCBs are expensive, and that cuts down on the cost. But it makes assembly more difficult. I am OK with that, since it's just me I don't have to worry about confusing anyone else.

 

[up-fiddler]

Hey, take a chill-pill. You're OK. All this here is premature ejaculation.

If you sent your email, just kick back and wait, and check these threads occasionally.

No one else has had a reply yet either.

Pre-ejac.......reminds me of my youth. (saddens)

Thanks for the post though.

 

[crazydoc]

I don't mod or repair, but now i'm thinking maybe I should re-consider.

Just some random thoughts:

We don't know and aren't going to know what these sound like until we get them.

Chance knows what the prototypes sound like, and he and some engineer buddies really liked them.

Chance doesn't know what the manufactured units will sound like - hopefully there won't be significant changes from the prototypes and they'll sound the same.

I imagine the parts/components to build these are dirt cheap, and the labor is cheap - in China. So you can't say it's "impossible" to build faily good quality units for the price.

We don't know shit about these yet - hopefully we'll get some specs and a schematic before we order.

Most of us (myself included) probably couldn't tell the difference soundwise between these and the units from which they are presumably derived.

At least one of these will fill a niche in my hardware, as I have nothing like them, so I'm going to get at least one - not to mod necessarily, but to use. If I decide, after reviewing the forthcoming info, to get more for modding, I will.

I can't make any kind of decision now based on current knowledge. I will buy one, though, just on chance's recommendation and my experience with the prior group buys he's handled.

Buying in a group buy is like getting a mail order wife - you can look at the pictures, get all the specs, and imagine all the things she can do, but you won't know if you made the right decision until you've used her for awhile. (Sorry about the male chauvinism ).

However, one of these is cheaper, and will be easier to get rid of if it doesn't work out.

 

[dgatwood]

I agree. It could be a very good deal from a modding perspective. However, we know that a significant number of the mics needed initial repair, and Marik had certain concerns regarding the tube PSU. These aren't trivial issues. A preamp with 4-band para EQ is a much more complicated piece of gear.

I would counter by noting that most of the repairs were really trivial things like a loose screw or a nut coming off the screw that holds the XLR output jack on the PSU.

The issues Marik had with the PSU, while legitimate, aren't something to panic about. It's probably the difference between the tube lasting twenty years and lasting forty, but given that the Chinese tube in there probably needs the extra heater voltage to not suck, for the stock hardware, it's probably exactly as it ought to be.

The ribbons... well, ribbons are really hard to get right. The material is breathtakingly thin, as I'm sure you're aware, and I've gotten the impression from one poster that the damage was probably caused by the process they use for cleaning dust off the mics prior to shipping. That's literally the sort of QC problem that won't affect pretty much anything but ribbon mics.

I suggest that anyone who feels able to mod or repair gear or build DIY projects would probably be interested. But once you start threads dropping the N-bomb, you're going to get a lot of people who have never picked up a soldering iron interested. I have already seen threads here where newbies have been recommended these pres. I do not think that is indicated. Not everyone is comfortable with the same risk/reward ratio.

The way I look at it is this: you have a choice as a newbie, you can buy something for $200 from a major manufacturer that will sound reasonably good or you can buy something for $200 from this group buy that has a small chance of not working, but if it works, will be a heck of a lot better than anything out there in the $200 range, and probably better than anything in the $500 range. Sure, it's a gamble, and everybody buying one needs to understand that.

That said, I wouldn't expect anything that's mostly solid state to require lots of mods to sound good, unlike mics which often could stand a better capsule, tube, and transformer.... I would expect the risk to be much lower for this group buy as a result, both in terms of people liking the sound and in terms of the odds of getting a dud. Just a gut feeling.

 

[mshilarious]

The way I look at it is this: you have a choice as a newbie, you can buy something for $200 from a major manufacturer that will sound reasonably good or you can buy something for $200 from this group buy that has a small chance of not working, but if it works, will be a heck of a lot better than anything out there in the $200 range, and probably better than anything in the $500 range. Sure, it's a gamble, and everybody buying one needs to understand that.

Again with the hyperbole!

In the $200-$500 range, you've got the FMR RNP, ART MPA Gold (or Digital MPA), Grace 101 (for a few bucks more), Rane MS1B, SP VTB1, M-Audio DMP3, GT Brick . . . and these are all pres with lots of experience out there, they come with warranties, and you can have them at your door this week. And I have seen many PCBs, I guarantee you ART and Rane (and EH too, forgot them) look nothing like that one.

Or if you want to try DIY, there are the Gyraf designs, the Five Fish kit, all the lunchbox stuff . . .

I assume (very dangerous) since the N word is frequently dropped that this will be a discrete design. A good discrete design can sometimes require intensive labor doing things like matching transistors. That's a part of what makes them expensive (the transistors themselves are cheaper than a good IC). I saw Bruno Putzeys post that he had made a better discrete design than a high-end opamp, but it took two things: him, and 40 transistors. So I'm putting my money on TI's (or AD, or THAT, whomever you like) EE staff, rather than a nameless manufacturer of questionable PCBs.

To extrapolate from the mic experience, this is my review: the first description of the condenser mics was, and I think this is a near quote, the brightest mics the poster had ever heard. In the sound samples posted, I thought the tube mic sounded nice. The ribbons sounded like ribbons, so no trouble there. I tended to agree with the poster's reaction to the other condenser mics.

At a similar price multiple you claimed for the preamp, do you really think there isn't a better condenser mic? Say up to $300? You're talking Shure KSM27, 109, or SM81, AT3035 (or even AT2020), and their SDCs, the SP C range . . . people seem to like the CADs, and even the MXL tracks I've heard sounded fine in comparison.

It's true the group buy was a good deal for ribbons, especially since it seems that some of the "professional" importers aren't doing any ribbon QC either. But if you look to Shinybox or one of the others who supposedly are inspecting or swapping trannies, that could still be a better path (albeit pricey) for those not comfortable with repair. I recall one group member broke their ribbon attempting to fix it, another sold it on the spot after seeing the sag and not wanting to deal with it.

So from my outside perspective, it's been a mixed bag. That's hardly the kind of basis for the statement you made above.

 

[chance]

I will say that if anyone has to mortgage their home to participate, don't do it.
Everything in life is a gamble. I only wish I could say who the manufacturer is, but many will remember what happened after the first group buy. The major brands shut us down for offering the same product for a fraction of their price. As for our ribbon sag problem, I feel confident that Marik found the solution. It was in front of our eyes all the time. (a big "duh") As he pointed out it was the way the mics are positioned in the case when shipped.
Our goal, and the whole point in GB's is to eliminate the middle man and save some $. Anyone not happy can offer them on the "bay" and easily re coup what they invested and even make a little on top of it. I am thinking the appeal here is for "gear junkies" (like myself) that like gear that is rare, different, but useful too. Something you don't see in the magazines, brochures, or at Guitar center.

 

[mshilarious]

Chance, I should say that what you have written and done has been very straightforward and honest. I haven't seen you make any of the type of claims which I am cautioning against.

If everyone interested reads your posts carefully and weighs others accordingly, I do not believe the problems I am concerned about will come to pass.