Do you write or study poetry?

[lotuscent]

Before I was a songwriter, I studied poetry in a pretty hardcore fashion. I workshopped with some very well known poets, filled notebook after notebook over a period of about five years.
I was encouraged by one poet in particular to get an MFA - she really like my work.

During that time I was also a musician, more of a player and somewhat composer but a totally lousy songwriter. I regarded most song lyrics as trite, cliche garbage most of the time, crap for the masses turned out by barely literate hacks... funny how at the time I coudn't songwrite out of a paper bag.

For years after that I struggled with my notions of good writing and applying them to a songwriting context. Musical considerations always seemed to compromise my verbal aims, and my poeticism always seems out of place in the musical realm.

I have recently been able to produce results that satisfy both my musical and poetic senses, but it has been a long struggle.

Do any of you out there pursue writing or poetry by itself? Has it helped or hindered your songwriting?

peace.

 

[Gidge]

poetry and lyric writing are VERY far apart IMO.....poetry lends itself more to the written word and is allowed more "poetic license" to use alot of fancy smancy imagery......songwriting has to be clear and to the point, letting the listening get your point in one hearing......myself, poetry just isnt in my bag and i would find it hard to go between the two......

 

[joro]

poetry and lyric writing are VERY far apart IMO.....poetry lends itself more to the written word and is allowed more "poetic license" to use alot of fancy smancy imagery......songwriting has to be clear and to the point, letting the listening get your point in one hearing......myself, poetry just isnt in my bag and i would find it hard to go between the two......

I agree,
Poetry allows you to express yourself unconditionally with or without rhymn while songwriting limits you to structure, aliteration, meter, hook, etc.
I know a lot of spoken word artists and I dig it but, I prefer songwriting to Poetry...
plus you have to do it in 3:30

 

[glynb]

very different disciplines.
With a song you can use the music to set the tone and feel. With poetry you rely on the words alone (unless the poems are being read out at a recital of course).

Some singers words have been compared to poetry - Bob Dylan was referred to as a pop poet in the '60s for example. But I think you can take this too far. That stems from the need some people felt to 'prove' that pop music and culture were as valuable as 'higher' traditional forms such as poetry, now we don't need to prove that anymore. They are both great but different.

For the record and to come back to the question, I write lyrics, but have no interest at all in reading or writing poetry.

I may be wrong, but i think I read that Leonard Cohen used to be a poet who subsequently got into songwriting and perfoming so maybe your experience is not that unusual after all.

 

[Aaron Cheney]

I write both lyrics and poetry, but as you guys have already stated, they are very different animals.

In my view, the main difference is that song lyrics are all written to lead to the chorus, which repeats and repeats and repeats. The goal of every new line you write is to bring the listener back around the chorus.

With poetry, this is not generally the case....




"Quothe the Raven...nevermore."



Dang it!!!!!


Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com

 

[tanlith]

Ummm... keep in mind that Jim Morrison of The Doors was a poet originally...


And look where that got him...

.... 'course he was also a drunk and a drug addict... so it's really hard to say WHERE the talent really came from eh?

- Tanlith -

 

[lotuscent]

Do you think he was a good poet?
This may sound overly academic... I think he really embodied the spirit of poetry, he just never really got beyond a sort of adolescent, babyish melodrama/shock style. Not a lot of substance.

Anybody read any Jewel?

 

[glynb]

A good poet?

He was a succesful poet, if you measure success in terms of getting your stuff listened to/read.

Was John Lennon a good musician? Again, does it matter, he was succesful and most of us would settle for success over achieveing a technical accomplishment appreciated by academics that noone ever hears!

 

[joro]

I have only written one poem...
here it is...

I wrote this one Tuesday night 9/11/ as a self therapy.
My emotions were getting the best of me and,
I was trying to come to grips with the horror of the day. I would like to share these words with all of you.

A Day Like Any Other

On a day
A day just like any other day
Our world was changed
It will never be the same

Falling to the earth
Crashing near the sea
Untold scores of souls
Souls, forever more set free

When, oh when,
Will we ever clearly see
To see the folly of our ways
The failure of humanity

Towers tall
Gleaming bright
Shuddered to fall
Fall into the night

Razed in a cloud
Hanging thick in the air
Tremble and shake
Shakes our souls to despair

Heaven now holds
From the land of liberty
In the well of souls
Those souls forever set free

On a day,
A day like any other day
The day our world was changed
It will never be the same


There is no structure for music for this because it is not intended to be a song but, an expression of concern for our world and our future. The most difficult thing for me was to try to explain to my son, how horrific people can be and how he should have hope that this world of ours will change for the better some day and hopefully soon.
I wish you all well
Joe

 

[lotuscent]

Re: A good poet?

He was a succesful poet, if you measure success in terms of getting your stuff listened to/read.

Was John Lennon a good musician? Again, does it matter, he was succesful and most of us would settle for success over achieveing a technical accomplishment appreciated by academics that noone ever hears!

Success wasn't in my realm of consideration thus far in the discussion, but since you bring it up -

I would say that John Lennon was a good songwriter - no doubt. calling him a good musician, well that's more of a semantic game there... how you define musician and such - blah blah blah.

Technical accomplishment is by no means my measurement of good - just part of it. Jim Morrison had little technical accomplishment in terms of writing, but he also lacked originality and clarity in his poetry (just my opinion).

The success argument is inconsequential as far as I'm concerned.
Plenty of examples of success lacking real talent (or real success in artistic terms). Don't need to cite them cuz you all see it.

 

[Greenshoe]

I echo what many say here regarding the differences between poetry and lyric writing - they are quite different.

The only thing I have to add is that while poems should be able to stand on its own, in songs the vocal delivery has as much to do with the lyric's overall effectiveness as what is actually written.

Also, how easy something is to sing factors into choice of words in lyrics, which may be less of an issue with poetry. For example, having too many consecutive words or syllables containing hard sounds like "ng", "k", "gr" or dipthongs (i.e. "oo" in Cool; "iew" in review, etc.) becomes problematic - because it'll be hard to sing in the pocket without it sounding garbled.

A famous example of vocal delivery dictating word choice is the song "Hey Jude" by the Beatles. McCartney wrote it for Julian Lennon when John was going through his divorce, and was orignally penned "Hey Jules". McCartney changed it to "Jude" because "Jules" was a mouthful to sing (a dipthong with an extra syllable).

 

[tanlith]

Do you think he was a good poet?
This may sound overly academic... I think he really embodied the spirit of poetry, he just never really got beyond a sort of adolescent, babyish melodrama/shock style. Not a lot of substance.

Anybody read any Jewel?

Definitely!

He wrote what he felt... I completely disagree with the concept of a poet (or any artist) "developing" and "maturing" his works beyond himself... if he were to try and force his writings to go beyond his own perspective then he wouldn't be writing from the heart.... he would just be catering to the clap-trap of what local critics want to hear. Never write for an audience... always write for yourself first.


- Tanlith -

 

[studioviols]

Poetry and songwriting are for me the seed and the tree. My songs spring from my poetic nature.

I find myself fully enjoying taking my poetry and others poetry and hacking and cutting and destroying and giving rebirth to a song from poetry or prose that never had a melody in it or around it or anywhere near it.

I have never had the urge to make a song into poetry.

Lotuscent :
Perhaps you have matured into a songwriter, and not just a lyricist, because a lyricist in my opinion is actually quite close to a poet.

I have found the greatest poets, like Kavanaugh for instance, to be wretched musicians. Can't carry a tune in a bucket sort of chap or lady, and all their mental horsepower is available for that one pursuit, the creation of poetry or prose.

I really found myself turning poetry into lyrics for melodies and chord progression I hear and play and hum , out of necessity for some durn lyrics

 

[lotuscent]

The only thing I have to add is that while poems should be able to stand on its own, in songs the vocal delivery has as much to do with the lyric's overall effectiveness as what is actually written.

that's a very good point

 

[lotuscent]

He wrote what he felt... I completely disagree with the concept of a poet (or any artist) "developing" and "maturing" his works beyond himself... if he were to try and force his writings to go beyond his own perspective then he wouldn't be writing from the heart.... he would just be catering to the clap-trap of what local critics want to hear. Never write for an audience... always write for yourself first.


- Tanlith -

I am always hesitant to speak judgement of others' work - as we all know what it's like to be on the chopping block...

I didn'y mean to imply that Jim Morrison should have written from any different perspective other than what he knew, I just think his work, while full of feeling, could have benefitted from some maturity that comes from immersing oneself in the study and creation of an artform. Some gifted people may possess these qualities innately, I just don't think Jim Morrison was one of them.

 

[47ronin]

i use to write and study poetry a lot. plan on doing more starting soon. most rock music lyrics dont exactly translate into poetry on the printed page. some exceptions: leonard cohen, lou reed, maybe patti smith. the doors were ok but morrison s lyrics definitely aint poetry.
a lot of rappers are actually really good poets. there are some others that are good but might be obscure for this list

the problem is fitting the idiosyncrasy of the poets style with the added structure of the song itself...

by the way lotus what poets do you like?

47ronin

 

[lotuscent]

I like mostly contemporary or in the later 1900's - Charles Hayden and Galway Kinnel and Ann Sexton are some of my current favorites. There's endless great poets out there - it's pretty easy to keep disovering more - just a question of how much time to spend.

 

[tanlith]

I am always hesitant to speak judgement of others' work - as we all know what it's like to be on the chopping block...

I didn'y mean to imply that Jim Morrison should have written from any different perspective other than what he knew, I just think his work, while full of feeling, could have benefitted from some maturity that comes from immersing oneself in the study and creation of an artform. Some gifted people may possess these qualities innately, I just don't think Jim Morrison was one of them.

Everyone's entitled to an opinion. I'm would NEVER condemn anyone for voicing thier point of view... You don't like his works... and that's ok by me

But millions would disagree

- Tanlith -

 

[lotuscent]

Just to be clear - I am tralking about his poetry and not his songs.

I do like a lot of his songs.

 

[terocious]

"Quothe the Raven...nevermore."



Dang it!!!!!

In my opinion songwriting and poetry crossover and share the same room. I used to write a lot of poetry. Presently my work takes a lot of poetic license and is written to be sung a cappella. My songs rarely have a hook that I am aware of and seldom a chorus which remains unchanged throughout the song. studioviols suggested that a lyricist is closer to a poet than a songwriter. I assume because a songwriter artfully has the well being of the whole song in mind rather than a lyricist whose central focus is the words. Oddly although I only have tune and words to hold onto I feel like I fit into the songwriter category. I think that songs are storytelling and it is up to you whether you want to tell the story in a straight forward or poetic manner. The most important thing is to stay faithful to your idea of faithful to the story.

lotuscent, As far as whether the poetry has helped or hindered my songwriting. I think it has allowed me to tell larger stories in the small space of a song. I also realized as I was writing that I finally feel as though I am writing in my own style. Which I regard as a combination of preference, prejudice and poetry.

-b