You want me to mix what? Umm... Help!

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Qwerty

Qwerty

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I have a friend who is working on an elaborate song as a finale to a rock musical. He has around fifty odd tracks in a DAW of everything from the kick through to piccolos, bassoon to triangle, contrabass to violin. Oh yeah - and another eight tracks of vocals to come.

I can make the "rock" parts sit together well - drums, bass, acoustic and electric guitars and soloes of the bass and guitar. I can also make the "orchestra" parts sit well enough together - there are three distinct "themes", the melody of each played on progressively more instruments.

Problem is they sound like sh*t when I put them together.

Any ideas on where to start with this?

Thanks,

Q.
 
Its a tuff job ! Mixing is an art that takes time and practice. The bottom line is you need to give each instrument its own space. This will be a challenge to say the least. I usually start with vocals getting it the best it can be. Then I work on bringing in the drums and bass, then guitar, then the remaining instruments. Compression, EQ, low and high cuts, and more play a role in a good mix.
 
Re: Re: You want me to mix what? Umm... Help!

Blue Bear Sound said:
Mixing 101
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Great Article Bear...I had to read the whole thing
A link is so much easier than a lengthy post ay
 
Thanks Bear - but I already have bits of that pasted under my monitor! (not kidding!)

My problem is in making the "rock" sit with the "orchestral" stuff - the arrangement is clean between the two parts, but they end up sounding like they are coming from completely different sonic landscapes.

Ciao,

Q.
 
Qwerty said:
My problem is in making the "rock" sit with the "orchestral" stuff
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Okay, I can't mix...let's just get that out of the way right up front. However, I read a lot, lol. It seems to me that you shouldn't try to mix them as seperate pieces. That's like trying to make 2 songs fit together, which I guess is okay if you're doing dance music in Cubase, lol...but for the rest of us, I don't see why it should be approached any differently than any other mix...Start with the kick, then snare, then bass, then I guess bassoon or some fool thing...

Sounds like an incredibly challenging project.

Good luck.
 
Qwerty said:
Thanks Bear - but I already have bits of that pasted under my monitor! (not kidding!)

My problem is in making the "rock" sit with the "orchestral" stuff - the arrangement is clean between the two parts, but they end up sounding like they are coming from completely different sonic landscapes.

Ciao,

Q.
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But they had to work together at some point, right? I mean - they were tracked together (either live or via overdubs)!

Unless no one paid attention to the interaction at the tracking stage (in which case, you've got a MAJOR problem on your hands!), there must be a way to blend them properly! See if they used any processing/EQ'ing while tracking to fit them in...
 
The problem, I'm guessing, is that most of our ears aren't used to hearing the two mixed together . . . and we think of the two (rock and orchestration) as two very different things. And they are, but that doesn't mean they can't be made to compliment one another.

I would start by listening to as much reference material as possible. I'd start with Jesus Christ Superstar, and make my way down to Tommy, eventually to later Led Zep (Cashmere?). Listen to nothing but that kind of stuff for the next few days, and then try and approach it with a fresh outlook.

It could be the soundscape is getting a little crowded, and you might have to try and simplify it by doing a lot of submixes; approaching the orchestration as it's own submix -- or perhaps two submixes, horns and strings -- and the rock part as it's own entity, and ride the faders. Try bringing them in and out, depending on where the song or story is going. They obviously can't all share the spotlight at the same time.

Sounds like a tough job -- but challenging. Good luck!
 
Visualize the physical space where all of these musicians are playing and where the listener is sitting. Use reverb, delay and EQ to put them in that space in a convincing way.

Apart from reverb and panning here are some less obvious tricks to move tracks around in 3D space:

Compress to move a track forward.

Roll off highs and lows to move a track back.

Use a fast pre-delay to put a track by the wall or a longer pre-delay to put a track in the middle.

Long reverb trails will blur your stereo image so be carefull using them.
 
chessrock said:
I would start by listening to as much reference material as possible. I'd start with Jesus Christ Superstar, and make my way down to Tommy, eventually to later Led Zep (Cashmere?). Listen to nothing but that kind of stuff for the next few days, and then try and approach it with a fresh outlook.
Click to expand...

Don't forget Pink Floyd and latter era Beatles and Beach Boys.
 
Remember that a good mixing engineer/producer also realizes when certain things that were "great" ideas while tracking, may not be the best thing when looking at the big picture. Perhaps certain parts need to be cut out, or faded in and out, or traded off with one another to let the song breath and create a little space. Clever panning, EQing, delays etc. to add depth are obviously ways off creating a 3D sonic "image". And I totally agree that approaching the 2 (rock vs. orchesta) is the wrong way to go. It's all one piece, and must be looked at as such. And lastly, read Bear's article one more time! :)
 
Thanks a lot for the feedback!

OK - I am by no ways there, but I AM getting a hell of a lot closer -

This is what I have got -

- There is four and a half minutes which do not have orchestration
- And another three and a half minutes with the orchestra
- In the orchestra section there are three "themes" developed
- Each "theme" adds another set of instruments, ie.
- 1st "theme" - Strings play lead (nothing else)
- 2nd "theme" - Horns play lead, strings support
- 3rd "theme" - Wind plays lead, horn + strings support

I am currently using this approach which seems to work well -

1. Mix the "rock" stuff as per Big League Programme.
2. Create sub-mixes of the strings, horns and wind. Each EQ'd.
3. Used EQ and a ducking compressor to make the strings sit on top of the "rock" part.
4. When the Horns come in, I take off the delay and add a good 'washy' amount of reverb to the strings and leave the horns dry-ish. I use the same ducking trick to plaster the orchestra 'into' the rock mix.
5. Repeat process for Wind - horn gets more reverb, less delay and the strings get no delay and a lot more reverb.

Oh yeah - and each new theme gets panned to the outside for the maximum impact and then recedes for the next "theme" to take over.

Now my problem is headroom - but I can juggle that...... I think - anyway all of those reference tracks came before "The Attack of the Compression Wars" so I figure a wide dynamic range probably isn't too bad.

Thanks for your help and this is the bit where you step in and tell me why I should be mixing all 66 tracks together in my poor little DAW...............

:) Q.
 
Sorry I can't listen to your mp3 right now, but I'm a bit concerned with all of the changes in panning for instrument groups. Are you trying to create a realistic sound? If so, go back to the post that mentioned visualizing the physical space.

I think you have to respect the layout of an orchestra. Pan violins hard left, violas, cellos and bass hard right. Winds are in center, brass behind them & right (horns left), percussion back and left. Thus each theme as it enters already has its own space, you shouldn't need to pan it from sides to center.

Reverb shouldn't vary much between instruments in the orchestra, should be longish but not too prominent. Now put the rock band in front with the usual panning, but a little less so since they won't be as wide as the orchestra.

The submix for each group idea is good, remember that classical musicians are very good at dynamics. I'd use these subs: violin, strings, wind, brass, percussion, rock band.

Go easy on compression. This is an orchestra! If you compress the orchestra heavily, it'll sound like a middle school concert. I would just roll off the orchestra during the rock band lead parts. If you compress the rock band the usual modern amount, they will sound very static in comparison. Go with a 1970 level of compression.

Nobody has mentioned perhaps the best rock-orchestra integration; Moody Blues' Days of Future Passed. Listen to that.
 
OK I listened to the mp3 now. Overall, I like the composition, like the mix.

The biggest comment I have is the patches. This just doesn't sound like rock band + orchestra, it sounds like rock band with synth player, like Europe or mid-80s ELP, which I like, but will never be confused with the Moody Blues album I mentioned. So perhaps you could clarify your objective a bit?

With what you've got, I'd say make the acoustic guitar intro a little smaller, maybe panned one way or the other. The organ should be huge, pipe organs are just massive. Check out Saint-Saens' 'Organ' Symphony No. 3 , when the organ finally enters it blasts the orchestra nearly off the stage. From about 5:00-7:00 get some of the rhythm guitars out of the way so the orchestra can be heard.

I don't mean to be harsh because I like this track a lot, I'd love to hear the vocals. I just don't hear 50 tracks, I hear maybe 20. Where are the bassoons, piccolos, etc? I heard organ, timpani, triangle (which was cool), horn entry which seem to fade to a guitar solo-type patch (5:40-6:00) then just a general string wash and a few horns. The large problem seems to be the string patches. Your general string patch is going to reproduce a smooth, long bow stroke sound. When an orchestra is in kick-ass mode, string players don't do that, they bow back and forth quickly to generate volume and excitement. Look for a patch with that sound. For an example of this, listen to Beethoven's 'Pastoral' Symphony No. 6, fourth movement which is a thunderstorm.

Rock band parts sound good, I like the bass. Last thought: how about a gong after the timpani rolls?
 
Thanks everyone for the amazing, intuitive help.

Mshilarious - u r on my Christmas list :)

I am hard at work and will let you know when I have got rid of "The Final Countdown" elements............

Thanks,

:) Q.

BTW - You wouldn't believe how funny it was watching my lead guitarist read your comments about the "synth" sound on the solo following on from the bass solo...... That is his electric guitar rig which he loves and polishes daily -- and you called it a "synth" -- Haha! I love it - Roflmfao!
 
BTW - You wouldn't believe how funny it was watching my lead guitarist read your comments about the "synth" sound on the solo following on from the bass solo...... That is his electric guitar rig which he loves and polishes daily -- and you called it a "synth" -- Haha! I love it - Roflmfao!
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Ooopsie . . . can't remember exactly but I thought it sounded like a synth that turned into a guitar solo . . . oh well.

Years ago one of the guitar rags had Yngwie reviewing Allan Holdsworth, said something like "I prefer my melodies to be pure, but I love his violin tone." Holdsworth responded "I was trying to sound like a saxophone . . ."
 
Firstly - thanks for all the feedback, it has been essential.

I have uploaded a dump of the orchestra as it now stands, pan, mix and sample wise, as a result of your feedback.

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=1746&alid=-1

Take a listen and let me know what you think regarding mix and believability of instruments and programming.

I ended up creating string, brass and wind sub-mixes, reverbed accordingly for proper precedence or instrument presentation. Let me know if you think I have it right....... I kinda think that the wind part sounds loud when it comes in, but then sits right at the end...... Oh yeah - and the first string part is intentionally plain -- it sits under the bass and guitar soloes.

Am I allowed to ride faders in a classical mix?

Thanks,

:) Q....

<takes hat off to mshilarious once again>
 
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