Yamaha MG/4 to Tascam 424mkII

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studiodrum

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Hey everybody,
anyone familiar with the Yamaha MG12/4 mixer-- I understand it has a 4 buss. But, I was wondering what type of plug connectors the 4 buss outs are. . . are they XLR, or 1/4" . .?

I was thinking of maybe barrowing a friends MG12/4 to record some demo stuff with my Tascam 424. . . I will be using 2-4 condensers mics. So, I thought that it might be easier just to use the Yamaha mixer, since it has Phantom power, and from what I hear, it has some fairly descent pre-amps.

But, I'm a little confused about how I would hook the MG12/4 mixer to the Tascam 424mk. Is there a simple way of doing this, and will I be able to record 4 tracks at the same time using the MG12/4 mixer, and Tascam 424mkII.

Any ideas .. ? Thanks guys!
 
I believe they are 1/4", unbalanced outputs,...

which would be easily hooked to the 424mkII by means of the 1/4" unbalanced inuputs.

The most utilitarian setup of these two units, would be to output the MG-12/4's 4-buss outputs to the 424mkII's Input channels 1-4, and record on all 4-tracks simultaneously with DIRECT mode, Tracks 1-4.

You'd need 1/4"M to 1/4"M unbalanced patch cables, [4].

;)
 
Ahhhhhh, okay I see. . .

Once again, Thanks for your help 'Reel' ' '

So, then if I were using the Yamaha MG12/4 as a mixing board for the Tascam 424, I would I plug the headphone amp into the Yamaha???

. ..and then would I be able to plug a 'scratch' vocal mic, and a guitar mic into the Yamaha-- just for listening as a reference while recording DIRECT on Tracks 1, 2, 3 and 4, as we discussed in the other post?
 
You might still want...

to run the headphone amp off the 424mkII's Line Outs.

The "scratch" inputs may be okay to run through the Yamaha mixer, as long as you designate a particular buss for "scratch" elements, such as buss 4. However, the idea of "scratch" parts not-to-tape is an idea that gets weaker and weaker, as time goes on. Why not just record your "scratch" elements to tape, on Track 4, [4-Direct] and erase them later? Or,... just trim them out of the mix using the fader, on playback??

All other elements of the mix & setup would remain the same.
 
Hey Reel. . .

Yep, you're absolutely right. . .I mean as long as their is still an open track--I think it would be a good idea to just record the scratch vocals on Track 4, .But, where do I fit in the ghost guitar part. . .? can I send the guitar mic to the Yamaha without recording it,...and just hear the guitar,..as well as the other tracks recording?

The idea was to record drums, and bass guitar, on Track, 1, 2, and 3. . .and just have the vocals,..sing the song,..as well as playing the rhythm guitar part-- just as a reference-- Then mix down all (3) tracks to my computer,..and send all those 3 tracks, to the 424, and place those 3 tracks (drums and bass) on Track 1, . . Now I have 2, 3 and 4 tracks open. . .

I was now going to record the rhythm guitar, on Track 2, then the lead guitar, on Track 3, and the Real vocals on Track 4 .. . does that make any sense?
or can I not do it that way?
keep in mind, Im a Newbie man, . .Dont shoot me yet! :)
 
I think,...

You should mix your parts from the 12/4, as primary input mixer, to a 4-buss mix that is:
Buss 1, Kick mic
Buss 2, Drum kit mics
Buss 3, Bass
Buss 4, "scratch" vocal and guitar

Cable the 4-buss outs of the 12/4 to the 1/4" inputs on the Tascam, input Channels 1-4.

TRIM to the LINE position, Channels 1-4.

Record in DIRECT MODE on Tracks 1-4.

The "scratch" vocal and guitar gets recorded to track 4, and the idea of "ghost" track, is a dead issue. Commit the "scratch" parts to tape at the outset, and rerecord them later, if you like. It won't hurt anything.

Why be obsessed about routing stuff through the mixer that you're not recording? It's counterproductive. You're making yourself crazy with it. Routing parts to Buss 4 to *not* record them, seems irregular, but you could do it if you really wanted.

Just put the Tascam's Track #4 mode switch on SAFE position, and go about your recording. The scratch track, Track 4, will not record the "ghost" channels of voice & guitar, or whatever else was on BUSS 4, on the Mackie.

===========
The 424mkII's headphone & LINE OUT feed w/Rolls would be suitable for monitor, also the Mg 12/4's headphone could be used for monitor.

===========
The bouncing technique you describe,... is doable. Not to say it would improve the sound, though. Any bounced set of tracks presents compromise of the sound.

You can improve your track count with moderate use of bouncing, but I wouldn't get over zealous with it. 10 tracks on a 4-track is feasible, through the used of a collapse-bounce or three, but it will likely carry with it a lot of sonic compromise, or degradation of some sort.

Not to say bouncing tracks is not a fun and useful technique, it is. Just not to overdo it.

Plus, you'll have to mix as flawlessly as possible, and commit parts into the bounce mix, choices you will have to live with, for ever. That's what I mean, by compromised in the mix. Not to mention, if your bounce mixes are not nearly flawless, your tracks could turn to mush, when it's all summed up.

There's something about planning strategically what parts you're going to bounce, for maximum impact of the technique and minimum generational loss or noise. Remember, once you bounce parts together, the individual parts are fixed in the mix. There's something about technique of bouncing tracks that works, versus bounced tracks that turn your mixes to mush, that you just have to learn by doing it.

As far as bouncing goes,... [MO],... I've done it,... to excess sometimes,... and often times when it worked nicely, but it never worked when I over did it, and it usually worked best when I took a subtle, planned approach to bounced tracks. I don't look at the "full collapse" bounce [10-bounced tracks on a 4-tracker] as practical, but I'm more inclined to bounce a minor part in behind a more major part. 4-trackers often force the issue of bouncing.

I'd generally not like to bounce tracks at all, if possible. If more tracks are needed, I'd prefer to move up to a larger format recorder, if possible. That's just me, though.

Anyway,... before I ramble further. :rolleyes: :confused: :eek:
 
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I agree with you. . .

completely, Especially, about the quality of bouncing, and I do realize that the mix has to be 'right on' or what's the point .. . ! You really don't want to be stuck with a crappy mix on one track-- cause then it just ruins the entire song.

Anyway, . .. I have to tell you that I broke my piggy bank, and scored a Tascam MH-40 headphone amp on ebay. I paid 91. bucks, which was probably a little too much for a used unit. But, I think it was a wise choice of equipment. Thanks for the tip!

-- which leads me to my next question.

Can I connect the headphone amp to the Yamaha, rather than the 424, or should I connect it to the 424-- what's the advantage or disadvantages. . . and lastly, (but not least) Since I will be rerecording the infamous 'scratch vocal's, and scratch guitar' part onto track 4-- can I plug in 2 mics (the vocal mic, and guitar mic) into 2 separate channels of the Yamaha mixing board, and then send those 2 channels to BUSS #4, so that I am recording the vocals, and guitar on Track 4?

Thanks man, . .
 
!!!

Yes!

Yes!

Fine!

I'd say, still use the 424's Line Outs as heaphone amp feed. It's a stereo signal. If you have the Mackie with a simple stereo master out, then that would work, too, but at that point, you're splitting hairs, because the mix you develop on the MG 12/4 should be virtually identical to what you'd be presenting to the 424mkII, and therefore, should sound the same, with all other things being equal.

Pardon my ignorance of Mackies. You'd need a L/R stereo mix signal to feed the headphone amp,... is the point.

Yes, IN THIS SCENARIO, anything you route to Buss 4 on the Mackie could, in your case, be considered a scratch track, if you wanted. Either commit it to tape, or don't, and other than the REC MODE switch setting, it's otherwise the same overall mix and functions. Switched to Track 4 DIRECT, Buss 4 records to track 4 on tape. Switched to SAFE, and it doesn't, and otherwise Buss 4 would be "ghosted" out of the mix, as far as the tape was concerned.

You're obsessed about that "ghost" channel scratch thing, aren't you? Heh.
 
Mackie. . .??

You mean the Yamaha, right. . ?

So, is that the way this Yamaha mixing board works basically?

It has 12 channels, and 4 busses. . .and I have 4 Tracks to record with on my 424. So, theoretically, I can plug a mic into Channel 1, 2, and 3 of the Yamaha MG-12/4, . .and send all three channels to BUSS #1 to record on Track 1 of the 424? .. and I will still have 9 channels and 3 busses left, and 3 more tracks left on my Tascam. is that correct. . . ?.

. .and its the vocalist/guitarist who is obsesses with ghost tracks, . . he likes to sing, and play along with the drums, and bass without recording-- then go back and record it while listing to the rhythm tracks. . .So, I'm just making sure it can be done, . for his sake .. Go figure.

PS What is a good price for that Tascam MH-40 anyway?
 
Er,...

YAMAHA, not Mackie. My mistake. I caught a Mackie question on another thread.

Yes.

Yes, that's correct, and that's basically how it works. It's your choice how to mix 12-inputs to 4-busses. I just recommended keeping the kick separate from the other drum mics, because you can change the level of the kick in relation to the rest of the drum sounds, if it's on it's own track, and sometimes that's desirable in the mixing phase. Any mixing configuration is your choice, though. I'm just recommending what seems simplest, and most utilitarian, but you could mix any number of different inputs to the 4-busses, however you wanted,... including shoving all unwanted parts off to Buss 4, and then NOT recording them.

Yeah, go figure. :eek:
 
Good mornin' . . .

Yep, I'm definitely with ya. I was definitely planning on recording the kick on its own track .. . But, I was planning on using a pair of overheads for the rest of the drum on Track 2. . . But, if the 2 overheads are on the same track, . .I guess it wont be stereo anymore. . or will it .. ?

would I just be better with (1) overhead on Track 2, or maybe combining a Overhead, and a snare mic on Track 2. . . what are your thoughts?
 
2 Overheads are okay, but it's going to be routed to Buss 2, and therefore won't be stereo.

1 Overhead and 1 snare mic is okay to put on Buss 2, but you'll have to do some listening tests to check for phasing problems, if any. :eek:
 
hmmmmmmm, now, im a bit lost. .

Okay, so now the real stupid question, . . what are 'phase problems' and what do they sound like?

. .and what would be your recordation or suggestion for micing the drums using only 2 tracks?
 
Reel, . . Ya there?

If I decide to use 2 tracks for the drum kit, . .using a mic for the kick on Track 1, and a overhead condenser, and a snare mic on Track 2-- If that combo can possibly cause 'phasing' problems, . . what would you recommend to be the easiest, and simplest way to mic the drums, using 2 tracks, and 3-4 mics?

Thanks, . .
 
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Why not just record ghost vocals & Guitar. . . ?

A Reel Person said:
to run the headphone amp off the 424mkII's Line Outs.

The "scratch" inputs may be okay to run through the Yamaha mixer, as long as you designate a particular buss for "scratch" elements, such as buss 4. However, the idea of "scratch" parts not-to-tape is an idea that gets weaker and weaker, as time goes on. Why not just record your "scratch" elements to tape, on Track 4, [4-Direct] and erase them later? Or,... just trim them out of the mix using the fader, on playback??

All other elements of the mix & setup would remain the same.
Click to expand...

So, if I'm recording the drums on Tracks 1, and 2, and the bass on Track 3. . rather than having Track 4 on SAFETY, and not recording the ghost vocals, and ghost guitar ... is there a way to plug a mic for vocals in Channel 5, and a guitar mic on Channel 6, and send them both to Track 4. . . or would I need a sub-mixer that has 4 buss outs, to do that?
 
Hi. Yes,... but I've been busy.

First, a phase issue or problem would cause certain frequencies of the sound to cancel each other out. That is, if there's a single mic, and the sound is "full" sounding, that's normal. Then, if you introduce a second mic, and the sound "thins out", then that would indicate a phase issue between the two mics.

Also, worse yet, a phase problem can introduce a swishy sound into the high frequencies, as the phases beat against each other. What this sounds like, is with everything normal, your cymbal crashes would sound like:
PSSHHHssshhhssshhhssshh!
And, if your drum mics are out of phase, your cymbal crashes might sound like:
PSSHHWWWHHHSSSHHwwwssshhwwwssshhh!
That's the best I can describe it.
-------
Just because you use two mics on drums, doesn't necessarily mean you'll have phasing problems, but it's something to watch out (listen) for. A suitable configuration of 3 mics on drums would be:
Mic 1: Kick: Buss 1
Mic 2: Snare: Buss 2
Mic 3: Kit: Buss 2*
* You may use the 3rd mic, a short distance from the kit, placed and aimed roughly between the toms and cymbals, to pick up the rest of the kit, that the first 2 mics don't address. However, THIS IS OPTIONAL PLACEMENT, and you'll have to listen for introduction of phase issues with this 3rd mic, BUT IT'S USUALLY SATISFACTORY WITHOUT TOO MUCH HASSLE. AN OVERHEAD FOR THE 3RD MIC WOULD BE SUITABLE TOO, YOUR CHOICE, BUT YOU'LL HAVE TO LISTEN FOR PHASE ISSUES, JUST THE SAME. THE THIRD MIC COULD INTRODUCE PHASE ISSUES TO THE SECOND MIC, SINCE THEY ARE TARGETED FOR THE SAME BUSS AND TRACK, AND THEREFORE MAY AFFECT YOUR SNARE SOUND. HOWEVER, THIS IS NOT ALWAYS THE CASE, OR DETRIMENTAL TO THE POINT OF ABANDONING THE 3RD MIC, IT'S JUST SOMETHING TO WATCH OUT FOR.
--------

If you're still intent on configuring "ghost" elements in the mix, that DO NOT get recorded, and yet ARE AUDIBLE in the headphone mix, my recommendations remain the same:
BUSS ALL "GHOST" ELEMENTS OF THE MIX TO BUSS 4 ON THE YAMAHA 4-BUSS MIXER, AND LEAVE TRACK 4 ON THE 424MKII ON SAFE. NO SUBMIXER IS NEEDED IF YOU'RE USING THE YAMAHA 12/4 AS A FRONT END TO THE 424. USE THE 4-HEADPHONE AMP AS CONNECTED OFF THE LINE OUTS OF THE 424.

I'M NOT ENTERTAINING ANY MORE QUESTIONS ON "GHOST" ELEMENTS OF A MIX. I'VE ANSWERED THAT QUESTION. I THINK "GHOST" ELEMENTS OF A MIX ARE A WASTE OF TIME, KNOCKING YOUR HEAD OVER. IF IT'S NOT GOING TO TAPE, WHY SWEAT THE MIX ELEMENTS OF THAT? MIX IT, & COMMIT IT TO TAPE, OR DON'T, IT'S YOUR CHOICE. JUST BUSS ALL YOUR UNWANTED ELEMENTS TO BUSS 4 ON THE YAMAHA MIXER AND EITHER SET YOUR TRACK 4 REC FUNTION TO "DIRECT" OR "SAFE". YOUR CHOICE. THANK YOU. :eek: :confused: :rolleyes: ;)
 
Reel dude!!! Nice to see ya again. . .

Okay, okay. . I'm off the kick of 'scratch' or ghost vocals. LOL But, thank you for explaining the best way to approach that concept-- I think that your right. . . why not just record it!

So, my question now would be. . .If I'm recording Drums on Track 1, & 2, . .and bass guitar on Track 3. . . is there a way to record both vocals and guitar on Track 4 all at the same time. . . ??? is there a way to plug a vocal mic , and Guitar mic into, either-- channels 5/6/7/8 and then send those 2 mics to Track 4 on a 424mkII. . ?

Last question: Thanks so much for explaining what phasing is, and what type of problems that I might encounter. . .and thanks for giving me a setup for recording mono drums on 2 track using 3 mics.

But, can you give me an idea, of what the best way to record the drums in stereo, . .using (2) overhead condenser mics, and a kick mic (and maybe a snare mic) using only 2 tracks. . . would I put the 2 overheads on there own individual track, and then the kick mic on either Track 1, or 2. . ? How would that work?

Thanks again Reel,. . !
 
Your best bet,...

is still to use the Yamaha MG12/4 as a front end to the 424mkII. Then, put your guitar/vocal onto Buss 4, and record Direct on Track 4. Simple as that.

Without the MG12/4, the equation does not add up. The 5 elements you want to record cannot be accommodated on the 4-DIRECT-MODE CHANNELS AND TRACKS, AND unfortunately, Direct Mode and Buss Mode recording cannot be used simultaneously on the 424mkII. Well, they can, but it will not yield the results you desire.

IF you want to use the 424mkII's normal inputs, #1-3, as stated, plus add guitar AND vocal,... the ONLY other solution might be to THEN use a SUBMIXER, to mix the guitar and vocal elements TOGETHER, to a MONO/Single channel source, and plug that into CHANNEL 4 & record DIRECT on Track 4, on the 424mkII. THIS WILL work, but it still involves a submixer for those last 2 elements, guitar and vocal. Not an elegant solution, but a solution, nonetheless.

With all else being equal, your best bet to set up this desired session, is to use the Yamaha MG12/4 as a front end mixer to the 424, as I said many replies ago. ALSO, any other high quality 4-Buss mixer will do the trick, F/I, the Tascam M30.

FYI, the Inputs 5/6/7/8 on the 424mkII may be used for Buss Mode recording ONLY, but Direct Mode and Buss Mode may not be used simultaneously. SO, your best bet to get this all working together, would be to have a high quality 4-buss mixer as front end to the 424mkII. It doesn't have to be Yamaha, but if you have the MG12/4 handy, then use it.

Before I repeat myself further,...

;)
 
More??

To record the drums in stereo, and still keep the kick drum separate, involves using 3 tracks. Think about it.

I've found a satisfactory solution in recording the kick drum separately, with it's own mic on it's own channel, and to it's own track, F/I, Track 1. THEN, with another single mic, place it so it mic's the entire rest of the kit,... say,... lofted just above the kick mic, and placed roughly between the two cymbals,... an "overhead", if you will. Record this "overhead" to Track 2, and live with it. That's the whole drumkit sh'bang, on 2 tape tracks with 2 mics.

To get any more complicated with drum recording solutions involves more mics, and potentially more tape tracks, and remember, you have a 4-track recorder. To commit more than 2 tracks to drums might hinder placement of your other mix elements onto tape, when you only have 4 tracks to work with.

I've already recommended you put a mic directly on the snare, and another mic on the rest of the kit, while Bussing those 2 mics to Buss 2, and recording them both onto Track 2, and I think that's about as good as it gets. You may introduce a 4th drum mic, if you really want, but make sure all the non-kick drum mics get Bussed to Buss 2, and recorded to Track 2. THEN, as mentioned before, LISTEN for phasing issues on the drum kit mics. The more drum kit mics you have, the more chance for introducing phase issues.

I'd like to avoid recommending a drum recording solution that involves "track bouncing". I won't go there.

I'm to the point, personally, where I'm recording on an 8-track recorder, and committing 4-mics and 4-tracks to drums:
-Mic/Track [1] Kick,
-Mic/Track [2] (Left) Snare + Hihat + L. Cymbal,
-Mic/Track [3] (Middle) Toms + Both Cymbals, &
-Mic/Track [4] (Right) Floor Tom + R. Cymbal
... and it sounds just swell!

That's just for example, and is beyond the scope of your question, & the 424mkII.
 
Okay, that Reeeeely helped a lot!

Yeah, You're right, . .I forgot that the conversation, originally was referring to recording with several mics on 4 tracks, but using an additional mixer, , ,The Yamaha MG12/4, . . my bad. . .I appreciate your patience with me. . . also thanks for the drum kit micing example, . .that really brought things into perspective.

I just have a few additional simple questions about the drum kit mic setup. . .If I use a kick drum mic, like an atm25, or 25 Pro, . and a SM-57 on the snare, what would be a good overhead mic, what would recommend, . . ? another sm-57, or a Condenser like a MXL-603, or a larger MXL-V67G. . ?

Oh, yeah! almost forgot! . .will the Tascam 424 MK3 allow you to plug additional mics into channels 5 and 6, while recording in DIRECT mode, or is that feature still limited , just like the MK2. . . Thanks again for your help man!
 
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