X-Y Overheads: Am I doing this "properly"?

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RecordingMaster

RecordingMaster

A Sarcastic Statement
Here's something interesting I was wondering about...

When I have mic'ed my drums in the past, I have always used close-mic'ing on each drum and 2 overheads in X-Y pattern. What I have typically done in the past, was place the overheads in X-Y smack dab over the center of my kit. Not over the snare. The snare is more to the player's left side of the kit, especially if he/she doesn't have a bunch of stuff going on over there like more cymbals and toms On the left side of the hats. I DO however have a bunch of stuff on my right side since I play one rack tom and 2 floor toms.

I recently read an article which stated you should have your X-Y mics centered over the snare to avoid either polarity issues or improper stereo imaging, if close-mic'ing the snare and panning it in center (which I plan on doing).

Here's my blunder then...
If the mics are in X-Y pattern centered above my snare, then the left mic would pick up only mostly my hats, snare, left crash and maybe a bit of the rack tom. Then the right mic would be picking up my snare, ride, right crash, china, cowbell, floor tom 1 and floor tom 2. I guess that's okay (since it would be imaged very closely to how the kit is set up).

However, in order to have the mics in X-Y exactly above the snare, I'd have to put the left mic on a VERY steep angle to catch the stuff on the left side (almost pointing straight down). So in order to have the right side mic pick up ALL the other stuff on the right side, imagine how flat of an angle I'd have to point it. Since it would be so far away from the right side sound sources, I'd worry about proximity effect. I am using CAD electret condensers by the way. I'd worry all the right side things would a) be too weak compared to left mic, and b) lack the low end compared to the left mic since the left mic is closer to it's own sound sources. Also, would doing an X-Y pattern that wide even work correctly?

Please see the diagram attached of MY setup and what I'm trying to describe in this thread. Thanks if you can help!

Happy 2012!

XY.webp
 
Then I would go for a Spaced overhead micing situation and forget the X/Y.
 
A spaced pair would be good for you, or some of the other techniques (Glyn Johns, Recorderman). You are correct that an x/y will probably be left side heavy in your case. I'd go with a spaced pair, but I really like the johns method and it has a nice balance but less stereo effect, while the spaced pair can be a much wider stereo.
 
moresound said:
Then I would go for a Spaced overhead micing situation and forget the X/Y.
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Which I would absolutely LOVE to do but there is too much controversy and wishy-washiness about how to do it right. Not only that, but it if I did know the proper spaced technique, wouldn't the right side mic not pick up as much of the snare and thus throw off the stereo imaging? I would have the close snare mic centered, so I guess that'd be fine, but I wonder if it'd be bad to have too much snare over in the left overhead and cause issues.
 
With some overhead techniques you aren't going to pan the two mics hard left and hard right. One may be slightly more centered to get a balanced sound. That's what I do with the johns method. I put the leftish mic a little more to the middle to balance it out.

As far as the "controversy", you have to experiment. And spaced pair is a generic term for any spread overheads. You'll have to study and experiment. That's all there is to it. But I think you'll get so e good results.
 
aaronmcoleman said:
A spaced pair would be good for you, or some of the other techniques (Glyn Johns, Recorderman). You are correct that an x/y will probably be left side heavy in your case. I'd go with a spaced pair, but I really like the johns method and it has a nice balance but less stereo effect, while the spaced pair can be a much wider stereo.
Click to expand...
Yes! I WANT wide stereo but can't find a good enough resource to tell me the best way to do so (spaced technique). I'm not going glyn johns or recorder man since I am close mic'ing everything. I am close mic'ing so I can add separate eq's, reverbs, compressions and such (as needed) to each individual drum. If you have a link to a thread here (or anywhere) that describes how to properly do a spaced overhead techniques for stereo that WORKS, please post. Thanks!
 
aaronmcoleman is exactly right ..... just experiment with the spaced over head micing and you will get precisely what your looking for.
 
RecordingMaster said:
I recently read an article which stated .........

...........there is too much controversy and wishy-washiness about how to do it right..........

........I can't find a good enough resource to tell me the best way to do so ........

...........If you have a link to a thread here (or anywhere) that describes how to properly do a spaced overhead techniques!
Click to expand...
Do you not see a pattern here???

Dude, I think you're depending way too much on reading the right article, and way not enough on experimenting and finding what works best for you. You have the kit set up? You have the mics? Well, that's all you need to figure it out. If something sounds good, use it. If it doesn't, don't.



Just for the record......
I'm not going glyn johns or recorder man since I am close mic'ing everything.
Click to expand...
You can use Glyn Johns or Recorderman and still close mic stuff. I do that, and so do many people here. Just find what sounds good to you.
 
The overheads and close mics work together but independently. You can use close mics and any overhead configuration. The most important thing is getting the overheads right in the room you're in. Don't avoid anything. Try them all and do it right.

I do my overheads like this. I split the kit in half with an imaginary line from the center of the snare through the kick beater contact point. that gives me a L and R of the kit with the kick and snare centered. Then put the overheads in relation to that line, equidistant from the snare. usually about 3-4 feet out from the center of the snare, pointed down. (pic not to scale, obviously)


XY.webp
 
RAMI, I agree. I DO need to experiment, which I have in the past with not much favourable results, thus me looking for better articles. More experimenting I guess.

I always thought the Glyn Johns Method and Recorderman methods were only if your number of mics was limited to four or less. I think I'll try the Glyn Johns Method and see how stereo it really is (with toms close mic'ed as well).
 
Greg_L said:
The overheads and close mics work together but independently. You can use close mics and any overhead configuration. The most important thing is getting the overheads right in the room you're in. Don't avoid anything. Try them all and do it right.

I do my overheads like this. I split the kit in half with an imaginary line from the center of the snare through the kick beater contact point. that gives me a L and R of the kit with the kick and snare centered. Then put the overheads in relation to that line, equidistant from the snare. usually about 3-4 feet out from the center of the snare, pointed down. (pic not to scale, obviously)


View attachment 69063
Click to expand...

That's awesome, Greg! Very simple concept and not sure why I didn't think of this. I'll try THIS first and see how it goes! So I guess the only trick to the spaced pair to keep them in phase is having them the same distance from snare?
 
+1 I feel that close mics plus the recorderman technique give a really realistic sound. you get a nice attack from the close mics, and then the overheads give you the true sound of the set.
 
RecordingMaster said:
That's awesome, Greg! Very simple concept and not sure why I didn't think of this. I'll try THIS first and see how it goes! So I guess the only trick to the spaced pair to keep them in phase is having them the same distance from snare?
Click to expand...

Yes. If you move shit around enough, you can get the kick and snare damn near perfectly centered in the overhead stereo image, and everything will fall into place. I mainly focus on the snare though. Measure from the center of the snare out to each overhead. It needs to be as close to the same as you can get it.
 
I would stay away from stereo mic techniques on drums unless it's for jazz.
 
One thing you might want to keep in mind is that anything you do isn't necessarily right or wrong until you hear it. If you flip between stereo and mono and suddenly there's a hole somewhere there's a problem. If the snare is not exactly in the middle of the stereo spread but it sounds good and breaks down to mono without killing anything, is an article that someone wrote on teh internets really a deal breaker?

Alternatively, since you've got close mics everywhere does your setup allow you to pan the snare the other way to compensate for the image in the overheads if it's really that important?

I am close mic'ing so I can add separate eq's, reverbs, compressions and such (as needed) to each individual drum.
Click to expand...

This is good??? Seems like a lot of work.
 
snow lizard said:
One thing you might want to keep in mind is that anything you do isn't necessarily right or wrong until you hear it. If you flip between stereo and mono and suddenly there's a hole somewhere there's a problem. If the snare is not exactly in the middle of the stereo spread but it sounds good and breaks down to mono without killing anything, is an article that someone wrote on teh internets really a deal breaker?

Alternatively, since you've got close mics everywhere does your setup allow you to pan the snare the other way to compensate for the image in the overheads if it's really that important?



This is good??? Seems like a lot of work.
Click to expand...

Panning the close mics top compensate for an improperly portrayed stereo image isn't something I'd like to do, but is a consideration if I'm at a complete loss that day for whatever reason.

As for the close mic'ing being a lot of work, that's just how a modern rock drum sound is done these days in a large amount of situations.
I like:
- Snare with a plate reverb and slight compression
- kick is dry with slight compression
- toms non-compressed with a hall reverb
- overheads dry and non compressed
- Each source eq'ed to sound the best in it's range (usually cuts rather than boosts)

That's what works for me, anyhow.
 
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