WTB: Furman Pl-8 II or equivilent power conditioner

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Lexus507

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I have narrowed down a wicked hum in my firepod when I run things direct. I am almost positive it is some kind of hum from a ground lopp hum of sorts. I have been meaning to buy a power conditioner anyways so I am looking for something reasonably priced like the Furman Pl-8 II. PM me or email Lexus507 (at) yahoo (dot) com
 
I would be very surprised if that helped, honestly, and it probably isn't the right fix even if it does help.... I'm not necessarily saying that you shouldn't get one, but you should probably fix the hum problem first.

Exactly how do you have things connected? What kind of computer are you using? What gear do you have hooked up to the FIREPOD? Is this microphone input, line input, or instrument pre input?
 
dgatwood said:
I would be very surprised if that helped, honestly, and it probably isn't the right fix even if it does help.... I'm not necessarily saying that you shouldn't get one, but you should probably fix the hum problem first.

Exactly how do you have things connected? What kind of computer are you using? What gear do you have hooked up to the FIREPOD? Is this microphone input, line input, or instrument pre input?
It is only when I have my guitar amp running direct and or when I have my headphone amp hooked up and then it just comes through the heaphones. When I switch my amp form ground to lift it goes away. It also happened when we ran our keyboard players output through his amp and then ran hte amp output into the firepod. So to fix this we ran the keyboard into the firepod directly then ran the output on the firepod back into the amp so he could monitor himself. Now we had the problem of latency. So yeah I guess that covers it. Any help would be appreciated. I have a feeling when I plug my bass multi effects and modeling pedal direct I might have the same problem.
 
A Furman won't fix your problem. Make sure all your gear is on the same circuit, and ground lift the power strip or whatever is powering your whole rig. Use those cheap-ass little 99 cent ground lifters from Home Depot. They are a must-have in audio. You should be fine.

But get a Furman anyways. They're convenient, let you organize power cords better, and look professional. Unless you want to spend an ass-load of dough, you're not going to get one thats much more of a glorified power strip. These are what most people have anyway, so its all good. Check out the Furman Merit series for the budget minded.
 
markitzero said:
A Furman won't fix your problem. Make sure all your gear is on the same circuit, and ground lift the power strip or whatever is powering your whole rig. Use those cheap-ass little 99 cent ground lifters from Home Depot. They are a must-have in audio. You should be fine.

Whoa there. Always lift shields on audio cables if you have to lift a ground. You should NEVER lift the mains ground on a piece of gear. There are two reasons why lifting a ground on a power outlet is a bad idea:

1. It is a safety hazard. Ignoring the trouble you could be in if you got caught doing such a sloppy wiring job, you could also get a nasty electrical shock when you touch the gear. That hum you're hearing is AC current being dumped into the ground plane of your gear. Only a trickle of it is ending up in your audio, but the amount of leakage in whatever piece of gear is responsible could be significant. Lifting the ground isn't getting rid of all that hum. It is simply denying it a place to go. That means when you touch the right piece of gear, it goes through you. :D

2. Most gear was not designed to work that way, and you can cause all sorts of problems, particularly for computers. You'll be completely wrecking the EMI/RFI certification of the machine (probably violating dozens of FCC regulations in the process), and you may significantly increase the frequency of crashes and data corruption as a result.

You're probably right that the gear is on multiple circuits, but even if it isn't, a lot of devices have poor grounding in their power supply designs. It's not particularly uncommon. (See my rant about this below.)

I am assuming that the headphone amp is an HP4 that came free with the FIREPOD. If so, the ground is floating (wall wart). The input is likely coupled through a resistor to that floating ground. If your computer's ground plane is noisy (and what computer's ground plane isn't?), you're probably dumping a good deal of noise into the headphone amp.

Don't get me started on wall warts. Digital gear notwithstanding, they are pure evil, as they basically mean that the gear cannot be properly grounded. If the gear is hooked up to a dozen things, you're probably okay. For a headphone amp hooked up to only a single device, it's asking for trouble.

As for the amplifier, it is probably responsible for dumping tons of hum when you hook it up. The ground lift switch is a good fix for that. The mere fact that this works tells me that some bonehead who worked on the amp's design thought that it would be a good idea to make the signal ground be separate from the chassis ground.

Yes, I know that separate grounds are common in audio gear, and it is F*&(ing idiotic. The result of such a design is that any hum induced on the ground like will consistently get carried through the shield on your signal cable to any device whose ground isn't broken by design, during which time it is basically inducing hum on the signal line. (This is my #1 rant about hardware design. Ground your bloody grounds, people. The excuse that you don't want power supply noise to leak from the chassis ground into the signal ground is a copout, and indicates that the chassis ground should simply be grounded better. :D)

Sadly, most gear these days doesn't have a ground tab, and the HP4 is no exception. Same with the FIREPOD. But there is hope.

ANYWAY... Back to the question.....

The easiest way to ground these devices properly is to wire yourself a 6" pigtail with a 1/4" plug on one end and a jack at the other end. On the plug end, add a 10AWG wire alongside the audio cable. Solder this to the ground lug on the plug. Put the cable together and plug it into one of the jacks. Build one of these grounding pigtails for the FIREPOD, the HP4, and your amp.

Once you have built these pigtails, for each physical location, tie the pigtail to a true earth ground by hooking the 10AWG wire to the ground prong on an electrical plug and plugging it into a wall outlet. If two pieces of gear are nearby, you can connect the pigtails together.

By hooking these devices to a common ground, you are basically ensuring that any electrical noise in the ground place of the device will take the path of least resistance out of your rig instead of ending up in your audio. :D
 
Thanks for all that knowledge...however it is all a bit overwhelming and well I am not handy enough to rig everything up like you said. And my headphone amp is actually a Behringer HA4700. Is there anyhing I can buy that will take care of the problem? Again thanks everyone for your responses.
 
dgatwood said:
The easiest way to ground these devices properly is to wire yourself a 6" pigtail with a 1/4" plug on one end and a jack at the other end. On the plug end, add a 10AWG wire alongside the audio cable. Solder this to the ground lug on the plug. Put the cable together and plug it into one of the jacks. Build one of these grounding pigtails for the FIREPOD, the HP4, and your amp.

Once you have built these pigtails, for each physical location, tie the pigtail to a true earth ground by hooking the 10AWG wire to the ground prong on an electrical plug and plugging it into a wall outlet. If two pieces of gear are nearby, you can connect the pigtails together.

By hooking these devices to a common ground, you are basically ensuring that any electrical noise in the ground place of the device will take the path of least resistance out of your rig instead of ending up in your audio. :D

do you think you could draw up a little diagram to illustrate this? i'm not quite getting the whole picture.
 
TravisinFlorida said:
do you think you could draw up a little diagram to illustrate this? i'm not quite getting the whole picture.

Sure. Easiest soldering job in the world. I'm going to draw this with a U.S. outlet. If you're in another country (outside North America, anyway), the ground may be a different pin. Find out for sure before you do this. :D

Ground-Strap.png
 
thanks dgatwood. i lost this thread until a few minutes ago. i get a intermittent low volume buzz in my monitors some times. do you think grounding my wall wart devices as you mentioned would fix this? this is what my usual setup looks like:
 

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Sorry to sound newbish, but is a wall wart anything that doesnt have a ground prong on its power connector? or is it anything that doesnt connect to power at all?

once you made these pigtail contraptions, where do you put them in the chain? do you plug them into the outputs or inputs of the devices that are wall warts?
 
darkecho said:
Sorry to sound newbish, but is a wall wart anything that doesnt have a ground prong on its power connector? or is it anything that doesnt connect to power at all?

once you made these pigtail contraptions, where do you put them in the chain? do you plug them into the outputs or inputs of the devices that are wall warts?

what's commonly called a "ac adapter" is a wall wart.........a little black box with two prongs that connects directly to an outlet. from what i can tell, the pigtail end of the cable would connect to the out of a mic preamp and the in of a headphone amp.

wheres dgatwood!? :confused: :D My ins/outs are'nt balanced (except 2 ins). I guess this won't work for me? :confused:

I think this would be the right way to use the pigtails:
 

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TravisinFlorida said:
wheres dgatwood!? :confused: :D My ins/outs are'nt balanced (except 2 ins). I guess this won't work for me?

You can do this on either an input or an output. Matters not. You usually just need one per device that causes problems, since the grounds on all of the jacks (both input and output) are almost always connected together inside the device.

Balanced vs. unbalanced really doesn't matter as far as this sort of cable is concerned. That said, it is probably better to make the cables balanced. You can always use a balanced cable between unbalanced (or mixed balanced/unbalanced) devices, but you'll get a little quality loss if you use an unbalanced cable between two balanced devices.
 
TravisinFlorida said:
thanks dgatwood. i lost this thread until a few minutes ago. i get a intermittent low volume buzz in my monitors some times. do you think grounding my wall wart devices as you mentioned would fix this? this is what my usual setup looks like:

Do you hear the buzz only when one device is plugged in, or is it truly intermittent? If it is truly intermittent, you probably have a bad cable or two somewhere in there. In fact, from my experience, the most common cause is actually more than one bad cable. Usually you'll have one ground that doesn't work and one that's spotty. The spotty one makes up for the other one being bad, and when it drops out, you have nothing....

I assume you haven't heard hum recorded in the mixes. If you have, then the problem is in your input path. If not, the problem is probably in the output path. To track down a bad cable, try disconnecting all of the cables simultaneously on your output path (or input path). Then, create a single signal path from your computer to the speakers (e.g. plug in all of the left channel wires). Wiggle the wire a bit. If you don't get any hum, that one's fine. Disconnect it. Repeat with the next path until you have checked every output path.

Beyond that, if I were guessing, the two devices most likely to be an issue are the headphone amp and the power amp. Try building one pigtail for each of those devices. Tie the grounds together and use only a single power plug for both. (Not that it will make any difference if you use separate plugs, but it costs more and wastes outlets. :D)

BTW, I probably wouldn't bother grounding a mic preamp unless you regularly use unbalanced mics. They usually aren't a problem. There are exceptions, of course.... If you find that one or more of them hum, add one....
 
darkecho said:
Sorry to sound newbish, but is a wall wart anything that doesnt have a ground prong on its power connector? or is it anything that doesnt connect to power at all?

A wall wart is one of those black bricks that you plug into the wall. It generally refers to a cheap external power supply built without proper power filtering. :)
 
does being a wall wart have anything to do with lacking that third grounding prong? is that why you ground them with the pigtail? or is it purely because it doesnt have good filtering in the brick and has nothing to do with lacking a third prong
 
darkecho said:
does being a wall wart have anything to do with lacking that third grounding prong? is that why you ground them with the pigtail? or is it purely because it doesnt have good filtering in the brick and has nothing to do with lacking a third prong

In the case of devices with wall warts, the noise problems are because there is no third prong. That said, while grounding issues are most common with two prong devices, not all devices with grounding issues are two prong devices. It's just that two prong devices are -guaranteed- to have a floating ground with all the issues that they present, while three prong devices -usually- do not. :)

Also, not all wall warts are two prongs. The external power supply for PowerBooks are three prong last I checked. A three prong external power supply is the best of both worlds; the power supply is external, so it isn't introducing noise into the system, but it is properly grounded so you don't have a floating ground.
 
Interesting, so is the point to put a ground on a cable that is attached directly to either the In or Out of a wall wart using device? I am assuming it would be difficult to remove the noise once it has passed through another device down the signal path?



BTW, do you solder the wire to the middle of these three?
q-reg-appart.jpg
 
something like this:
 

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